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What Do We Already Agree Upon?

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An open discussion forum for those who have assented to the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer to write and / or adopt by mutual agreement a statement of principles as a guide and standard.
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log
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What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by log » Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:04 am

It seems to me that it would be very easy to mutually agree to a statement of principles if we all already mutually agreed to a set of principles. If we all already mutually agreed to a set of principles, then all we'd have to do is write them in a statement, present it before the body, and we'd be done.

Do we agree upon the doctrine of Christ (2 Nephi 31-32; 3 Nephi 11)?

Do we agree upon the Sermon on the Mount (Luke 6:20-49; Matthew 5-7; 3 Nephi 12-14)?

Jared Livesey



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Lady Believer
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Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by Lady Believer » Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:34 am

Well YES!!!


Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

log
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Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by log » Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:51 pm

I hope that that agreement is indeed mutual throughout the body and is reflected in whatever gets produced and adopted.



BrentL
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Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by BrentL » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:19 pm

me too.


"Fools!" said I, "you do not know!"
"Silence like a cancer grows"

truth
Posts: 29
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Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by truth » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:45 am

I don't understand all the hullabaloo. Christ himself has given us a guide and standard from His own mouth. Is this not enough?

The Covenant

"The Book of Mormon was given as my covenant for this day and contains my gospel, which came forth to allow people to understand my work and then obtain my salvation";"Repent and bring forth fruit showing repentance, and I will establish my covenant with you and claim you as mine.

The Guide and Standard

"When you have an agreed statement of principles I require it to also be added as a guide and
standard for my people to follow":

"I have given to you my doctrine, and have also revealed teachings, commandments, precepts, and principles to guide
you
and it is not meet that I command you in all things—reason together and apply what I have given you and it will be enough.
  • "Study my words and let them be the standard for your faith
  • "Receive the scriptures approved by the Lord as a standard to govern you in your daily walk in life"
  • "Use the scriptures to correct yourselves and to guide your words, thoughts and deeds"
The Details
  • "Love one another"
  • "Repent, therefore, like Peter and end your unkind and untrue accusations against one another and make peace"
  • "Labor with me [Christ]"
  • "Be like me [Christ]"
  • "Come to me [Christ]"
  • "Forgive one another"
  • "Receive my covenant and abide in it"
  • "Do not murmur"
  • "Take care how you invoke my [Christ's] name"
  • "Be of one heart"
  • "Regard one another with charity"
  • "Accept and do as I have required"
  • "Measure your words before giving voice to them"
  • "Consider the hearts of others"
  • "Study to learn how to respect your brothers and sisters and to come together by precept, reason and persuasion"
  • "Do my [Christ's] works"
  • "Pray together in humility and together meekly present your dispute to me"
  • "Flee from the cares and longings that belong to Babylon"
  • "Obtain a new heart"
  • "Let not your hearts remain divided from one another and divided from me"
  • "Be tender with one another"
  • "Pursue judgment"
  • "Judge not others except by the rule you want used to weigh yourself"
  • "Bless the oppressed"
  • "Care for the orphan"
  • "Uplift the widow in her need"
  • "Rejoice in me [Christ]"
  • "Rejoice with your brethren and sisters who are mine also"
  • "Be one"
  • "Do not forsake my covenant to perform it"
  • "Accept the obligations established by the Book of Mormon as a covenant"
  • "Cease to do evil and to seek to continually do good"
  • "Assist all others who covenant to likewise accept this standard to govern their lives to keep the Lord’s will"
  • "Succor those who stand in need"
  • "Lighten the burdens of your brothers and sisters whenever you are able"
  • "Help care for the poor among you"
  • "Seek to become of one heart with those who seek the Lord to establish His righteousness"
  • "Cry peace"
  • "Proclaim my words"
  • "Invite those who will repent to be baptized and forgiven, and they shall obtain my Spirit to guide them"
  • "Be comforted"
  • "Be of good cheer"
  • "Rejoice"
  • "Look up"
  • "Seek to recover the lost sheep remnant of this land and of Israel and no longer forsake them. Bring them unto me and teach them of my ways, to walk in them"
  • "Teach your children to honor me"



lobo78
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Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:40 am

Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by lobo78 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:44 am

Does the Guide & Standard need to include all our beliefs, precepts, and tenets? I understood that it's purpose is to help newcomers understand how a fellowship operates. In order to allow the greatest flexibility to each fellowship, it should be kept to the bare minimum number of principles needed. As I see it, they would be the following:

1. The Doctrine of Christ (As Denver has stated this is the only common belief required in order to participate in a fellowship)
2. Baptism
3. Sacrament
4. Tithing
5. Authority to perform ordinances
6. Common Consent (as in, all decisions made by a fellowship should be made by common consent)

That's it. Am I missing anything? If we restricted ourselves to these 6 core things that define a fellowship and how it operates, then we could probably fit the Guide & Standard on somewhere between 1-2 pages. That sure seems like a light thing to me.



log
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Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by log » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:03 pm

I'm of the opinion that the G&S does not need to include all our beliefs - and it probably would be best not even to try, since it is highly unlikely we all believe the same things. But I think it might be beneficial to find out what we all believe in common, and build off of that.

But you suggest other questions to me, like whether a fellowship needs to operate by "common consent." Maybe one fellowship might like "majority rules," while another might prefer "mutual agreement." Could we allow each fellowship to manage their own affairs entirely as they see fit as led by the Spirit in their particular circumstances, without trying to implement any kind of uniform standard?

What do you think?



BrentL
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Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by BrentL » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:33 pm

I think it should be more of a "welcome packet" like onboarding at a new job.

and totaly agree that for the most part fellowships ought to govern themselves. (and I dont want to discuss what "most part" means)


"Fools!" said I, "you do not know!"
"Silence like a cancer grows"

lobo78
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:40 am

Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by lobo78 » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:08 pm

I list "Common Consent" as a core principle only because it was repeatedly stressed by Denver in the 10 talks. Here are the quotes I could find.
As groups of common believers, pay tithing into a common fund. Then by the voice of your own group, dispose of it by common consent so that everyone in your group knows everything that comes in and everything that goes out. Then you begin to have no poor among your group. You provide for those who need housing, food, clothing, healthcare, education, and transportation. Do it without a leader. Do it by the voice of your own common consent, by your own unanimous approval. Do it by united agreement.
You want to know how far away you are at this moment from Zion; this will tell you. If you want an accurate barometer of "what lack you yet?" then organize yourselves and you, unitedly in small groups, gather your tithing into the storehouse you maintain, and by your common consent take care of those who are poor among you.
The fact of the matter is we all tend to want that “Strongman” We want that ruler, that presiding authority. We tend to want someone to take control, precisely because we don't want to go through the effort involved in common consent, and required for the common sense of governing ourselves. It is just so much easier to pay, and pray, and obey, than it is to go, do, and rise up, to be one with our Lord and our God.
It will happen! But it requires an awakening, and it requires an arising. It does not require a “Strongman” leader. A servant may well be necessary, but not a “Strongman” leader. It does not require a President. It requires your common consent by your deeds, not only to say, but to do.
In Grand Junction I spoke about tithing. I talked about organizing yourselves, collecting your own tithing and managing it yourselves, to assist the poor who are among you, and to do this by the voice of your own local group. Do it by common consent.



log
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Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by log » Mon Oct 02, 2017 2:01 pm

Well, there may be something to that. Should we take Denver's references to "common consent" to be binding upon the fellowships, along with his references to tithing?



AndEva
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:28 pm

Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by AndEva » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:36 pm

To the person named "Truth"
Please forgive me, but I took your words and copied them onto the Guide and Standard blog. I dont know who you are and perhaps that is best because then all gratitude goes to the Lord.

When I read what you had complied, my spirit shouted for Joy, FINALLY someone gets it!
I CHOOSE HIS WORDS AS A GUIDE AND STANDARD FOR MY LIFE
It would and should be all about Him and Nothing about us. His words, His Truth...His Glory.

Please, can we submit what you wrote, exactly as you wrote it to the people? I feel we are forgetting that the Lord has already given us a Guide and Standard and so we are trying to write our own words when we have no idea of the beginning to the end.

Forgive my zeal.

Eva Gore





truth wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:45 am
I don't understand all the hullabaloo. Christ himself has given us a guide and standard from His own mouth. Is this not enough?

The Covenant

"The Book of Mormon was given as my covenant for this day and contains my gospel, which came forth to allow people to understand my work and then obtain my salvation";"Repent and bring forth fruit showing repentance, and I will establish my covenant with you and claim you as mine.

The Guide and Standard

"When you have an agreed statement of principles I require it to also be added as a guide and
standard for my people to follow":

"I have given to you my doctrine, and have also revealed teachings, commandments, precepts, and principles to guide
you
and it is not meet that I command you in all things—reason together and apply what I have given you and it will be enough.
  • "Study my words and let them be the standard for your faith
  • "Receive the scriptures approved by the Lord as a standard to govern you in your daily walk in life"
  • "Use the scriptures to correct yourselves and to guide your words, thoughts and deeds"
The Details
  • "Love one another"
  • "Repent, therefore, like Peter and end your unkind and untrue accusations against one another and make peace"
  • "Labor with me [Christ]"
  • "Be like me [Christ]"
  • "Come to me [Christ]"
  • "Forgive one another"
  • "Receive my covenant and abide in it"
  • "Do not murmur"
  • "Take care how you invoke my [Christ's] name"
  • "Be of one heart"
  • "Regard one another with charity"
  • "Accept and do as I have required"
  • "Measure your words before giving voice to them"
  • "Consider the hearts of others"
  • "Study to learn how to respect your brothers and sisters and to come together by precept, reason and persuasion"
  • "Do my [Christ's] works"
  • "Pray together in humility and together meekly present your dispute to me"
  • "Flee from the cares and longings that belong to Babylon"
  • "Obtain a new heart"
  • "Let not your hearts remain divided from one another and divided from me"
  • "Be tender with one another"
  • "Pursue judgment"
  • "Judge not others except by the rule you want used to weigh yourself"
  • "Bless the oppressed"
  • "Care for the orphan"
  • "Uplift the widow in her need"
  • "Rejoice in me [Christ]"
  • "Rejoice with your brethren and sisters who are mine also"
  • "Be one"
  • "Do not forsake my covenant to perform it"
  • "Accept the obligations established by the Book of Mormon as a covenant"
  • "Cease to do evil and to seek to continually do good"
  • "Assist all others who covenant to likewise accept this standard to govern their lives to keep the Lord’s will"
  • "Succor those who stand in need"
  • "Lighten the burdens of your brothers and sisters whenever you are able"
  • "Help care for the poor among you"
  • "Seek to become of one heart with those who seek the Lord to establish His righteousness"
  • "Cry peace"
  • "Proclaim my words"
  • "Invite those who will repent to be baptized and forgiven, and they shall obtain my Spirit to guide them"
  • "Be comforted"
  • "Be of good cheer"
  • "Rejoice"
  • "Look up"
  • "Seek to recover the lost sheep remnant of this land and of Israel and no longer forsake them. Bring them unto me and teach them of my ways, to walk in them"
  • "Teach your children to honor me"



jmasko
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:08 pm

Re: What Do We Already Agree Upon?

Post by jmasko » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:00 am

Ditto, I love this proposal shared by Truth, because it is plain, simple, and beautiful!!! It is the Lord's words and it is something that people of ALL cultures can easily resonate with, accept, and live by. Living among a people of a different culture, I've realized just how much I don't know and need to learn. In many respects, the people in Laos and Thailand (as Buddhists) possess more Christlike attributes than what I've seen in my own country. It's all really very sobering to me!

My opinion -- in general, as Gentiles (myself included) tend to unnecessarily over-complicate/multiply complexity to things. It's in our very culture and can infect almost everything. The Spirit will confirm truth, not matter the source, but especially the words of Christ. That said, it has been my own sad experience that over-complication causes the Spirit to withdraw and leaves us with darkness.

I believe the Lord's Guide and Standard is for ALL people. To quote His words, "Remember there are others who know nothing, as yet, of my work now underway, and therefore the guide and standard is to bless, benefit and inform them.." I believe these "Others" are not just former LDS, European descendants living in North America, Europe, or Australia, but will encompass peoples from other places and cultures. My hope is we will keep that in mind as we go forward--hence the need for simplicity.

In the end, I humbly believe it is our relationship with Christ that can make us of one heart and one mind as a people. Ultimately, I believe it is Christ and His words that people will coalesce around more than anything.

Just my .02 cents.

Barbs, spears, and arrows welcome!:)



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