Boise Conference Questions

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alpinealan
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Boise Conference Questions

Post by alpinealan » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:29 pm

I attended the Boise conference this past weekend, and am coming away with perhaps more questions than answers:

1) What's with the continued Brigham and Nauvoo Saints bashing?? Though I don't believe in defending the indefensible, what good does it do to try to heap ever more bile upon the graves of Brigham and the Nauvoo Saints?? Given the repeated thunderous broadsides fired, it's now kinda like "Denver...get over it...they did what they did and they are dead...can we move on already??" Reminds me perhaps of Jonah...running the opposite direction when told to preach repentance to Ninevah...gets the whale treatment...returns and preaches to Ninevah...and then is majorly pissed because they repent and the Lord spares them. Very human...but let's be honest here...Jonah diminishes himself because he can't find the charity in his heart to rejoice in the repentance and the Lord's sparing them. So can't we acknowledge the mistakes of Brigham and the Nauvoo Saints, not repeat them and move on?? Aren't we supposed to have charity in our hearts towards all...including the dead?? Or should we start a campaign to remove all of the Brigham statues wherever they are found??

2) This is associated with 1) above..."man will be punished for their own sins...and not for Adam's transgression." So why is there a particular reason I should do penance and flagellate myself because of the false traditions I might have inherited from Brigham and the Nauvoo Saints? Does the Lord require a catechism of sorts for us to denounce the former Saints and their apostasy? If so, why not also for the apostasy of the Western/Catholic church...whose influence on Western Civilization (gentiles) is so pronounced? After all, Obama went on his "apology tour" to Muslim countries flagellating "the West" for its historical sins and attempting (in his virtue-signalling way) to appease those descendants of Ishmael...many of whom want to kill Westerners because they (we) are "infidels".

3) I suppose I can find some precedent to taking a covenant to be the Lord's people from King Benjamin's talk and from Moses. What concerns me is that there is no precedent in 3 Nephi where the Lord gives his doctrine...which is to repent and be baptized...and states that it comes of "evil" to add to or take away from this doctrine. So the question posed is this...why wasn't there a similar covenant recorded in 3 Nephi? Denver's instructions are that when one is baptized, one can also have the covenant administered to them immediately afterwards...receiving two covenants at the same time. (One an individual covenant, the other a group covenant.) What precedent is there for this in the scriptures other than those already referenced? And why isn't this in 3 Nephi??

Log and I were able to visit on Saturday night, and I appreciate discussing with someone who knows the scriptures these sorts of things. Though we didn't have time to talk about all of the above questions, I agreed with him that taking on this covenant wasn't much different than many other covenants...which is...that we will abide the commandments of the Savior as enunciated in the Sermon on the Mount. If that was what I was doing by saying "yes", them I'm okay with that...as I have done that multiple times before.

Your thoughts on these ruminations??


"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Mark 9:24

log
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Re: Boise Conference Questions

Post by log » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:30 pm

I give as my opinion:

This covenant is in similitude of the covenant made mention of here, just as baptism by water is in similitude of baptism by fire:
Jeremiah 31
31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
That is the real covenant - when the Lord writes his law upon your heart and mind. That makes you in spirit and in truth one of his people. From thence, this is the command.
2 Nephi 26:27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.
That is, teach all men of his ways, by which means we gather scattered Israel.
Jacob 4:8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.
The goal is to get here:
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Those are Zion.

This covenant is an invitation to the Gentiles to take seriously the Lord and his holy commandments, to both walk according to them and teach them to everyone.

That is:
To give to every man that asketh thee, and of him who taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
To lend to all comers, particularly our enemies.
To yield when sued without a fight.
To do alms.
To not lay up treasures for ourselves upon earth, planning for tomorrow - particularly for retirement, but instead lay up treasures in heaven - by distributing our excess substance to the poor.

And so on, as recorded in 3 Nephi 11-15, Matthew 5-7, and Luke 6:20-49.

That's all we are here to do, and what the covenant is pointing us towards, but it won't work - it will remain words on paper, empty and void - unless we actually do it with full purpose of heart, even to the laying down of our lives, and everything short of our lives.



jdt
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Re: Boise Conference Questions

Post by jdt » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:29 am

I think the prior bits about Nauvoo are very important and timely.
The covenant is really just an opportunity. Being the Lord's people just an invitation.
There is a distinct possibility that people in the movement or the entire movement itself could face some very tough times, persecution if you will, from non-believers. A response to that could be "Damn those gentiles who are trying to stop the Lord's work. They are Babylon. We are God's people." and so on.
What happened last time stuff like this occurred? Well the "Lord's people" had quite a few things to repent of and God used "the wicked" to humble them in the hopes of repentance. I agree we should not look at those who went in the past with condemnation, but rather hopefully learn from their situation. My guess is we will have a great deal of compassion and charity for them before all is said and done.



clarkkent14
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Re: Boise Conference Questions

Post by clarkkent14 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:01 pm

Are you referring to the prayer for covenant? I wasn't there so I'm not sure where the bashing happened.



clarkkent14
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Re: Boise Conference Questions

Post by clarkkent14 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:15 pm

After reading through you other posts I think this is what you're referring to. I'll try to chime in after I do some reading.



alpinealan
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Re: Boise Conference Questions

Post by alpinealan » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:09 pm

Mormon 9:
27 O then despise not, and wonder not, but hearken unto the words of the Lord, and ask the Father in the name of Jesus for what things soever ye shall stand in need. Doubt not, but be believing, and begin as in times of old, and come unto the Lord with all your heart, and work out your own salvation with fear and trembling before him.

28 Be wise in the days of your probation; strip yourselves of all uncleanness; ask not, that ye may consume it on your lusts, but ask with a firmness unshaken, that ye will yield to no temptation, but that ye will serve the true and living God.

29 See that ye are not baptized unworthily; see that ye partake not of the sacrament of Christ unworthily; but see that ye do all things in worthiness, and do it in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God; and if ye do this, and endure to the end, ye will in nowise be cast out.

30 Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.


"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Mark 9:24

clarkkent14
Posts: 93
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Re: Boise Conference Questions

Post by clarkkent14 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:14 pm

I thought this might add to the discussion
Jesus' Baptism: Its Historicity and Implications wrote:"... confession of sin in ancient Israel did not mean unraveling a lengthy laundry-list of personal peccadilloes, with the result that worship of God was turned into a narcissistic reflection on the self. Confession of sin in ancient Israel was a God-centred act of worship that included praise and thanksgiving. Confession of sin often meant recalling God’s gracious deeds for an ungrateful Israel, a humble admission that one was a member of this sinful people, a recounting of the infidelities and apostasies of Israel from early on down to one’s own day, and a final resolve to change and be different from one’s ancestors."



alpinealan
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Re: Boise Conference Questions

Post by alpinealan » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:57 pm

One could presume that Israel wasn't alone in their being ungrateful, full of infidelities and apostasies. Sounds to me that is the human condition...period.

Since writing this original post, I have received a 15-page treatise from one who tends towards the Joseph Rockwell group. The author has assured himself that he doesn't need to covenant along with the "gentiles" in Boise because he has a scintilla of "Lamanite" blood in his ancestry. So because he won the DNA gene lottery, he isn't required to make any "stinkin'" covenant with all of those poser gentiles...he's got the real deal.

I'm not any closer to answering the questions posed in the original post now than when I originally wrote them. But I do appreciate Chad and Log in their attempts to shed light on the questions.


"Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief." Mark 9:24

MichaelB
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Re: Boise Conference Questions

Post by MichaelB » Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:35 am

Did those of you who accepted this covenant agree to accept Denver as an authorized messenger for these last days?

I watched the Boise conference online, and I seem to remember some language like that.

Was that part of it?



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