If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

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If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:15 am

Despite the fact that Judas was a sinner (John 12:6), an unbeliever (John 6:64), and therefore lacked eternal life, did not know the Lord, and so on, could you be saved if, when Judas knocked at your door and announced that he bore a message from he who Moses wrote of in the law, and then recited the Sermon on the Mount to you, you rejected it because you judged Judas's character and found him to be lacking?

Apparently not (Matthew 10:40).

The only things that matter are 1. is the message from the Lord, and 2. did the messenger deliver it accurately.

And only the Lord can tell you that.

And the Lord sends scribes and wise men, too - not simply messengers (Matthew 23:34). Only the Lord can vouch for them or their teachings.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:16 am

Than why does Moroni 23:14 say "...trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments"?

And why have you yourself repeatedly quoted that passage?

And why was Paul saved after he heard and rejected Stephen's speech before the Sanhedren?

(Unlike Judas, Stephen was a believer, and a faithful messenger, and Paul still rejected his message, and only believed when the risen Christ preached a sermon to him on the road to Damascus.)



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:26 am

So, you also reject Matthew 10:40 and John 13:20, as well as John 17:3, and Luke 14:26?



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:40 pm

And you reject Moroni 23.:14?
...trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments"?
(Book of Mormon.)

If a teacher's personal conduct is entirely irrelevant, why do you yourself quote that passage so frequently on your blog?

What point are you trying to make there?

And didn't God send Stephen to Paul and the rest of the Sanhedren?

Didn't they all reject his testimony?

Didn't his executioners lay their clothes at Paul's feet?

And didn't he consent to his death?

And wasn't he on his way to drag Christians out of their beds when he was converted and called to be an apostle by the risen Christ?

And wasn't he saved?
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:12 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:47 pm

So, that's a "yes," you do reject Matthew 10:40 and John 13:20, to be added to your previously publicly established rejection of Luke 14:26 and John 17:3?

Is there any part of the Bible you actually accept or is all of it to be rejected whenever it implies there is no external test you may apply - no way to judge after the hearing of your ears, or the sight of your eyes - to distinguish that which comes from God from that which does not?

Like this: John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:19 pm

Actually, neither Matthew 10:40 or John 13:20 say anything about anyone being lost because they rejected the testimony of a sent messenger (as Paul clearly did, if you believe the bible.)

Maybe you were thinking of Luke 10:16?

But all the verb tenses there ( in the Greek ) are in the present tense, so that passage wouldn't prove that Paul couldn't be saved after rejecting Stephen's testimony ( or that someone who had rejected Judas's testimony couldn't be saved either. )

What exactly are you trying to prove here ( and who are you trying to compare to Judas )?
Last edited by MichaelB on Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:31 pm

I see: you are taking the position that one may know Jesus without receiving him and that one may receive him without receiving whomsoever he sent.

So, if you, Michael, had despised Judas if he had come to your door and recited to you the Sermon from he of whom Moses wrote in the law, you would have despised Jesus, who sent Judas. If you, Michael, had received Judas, you would have also received Jesus, according to Jesus's words.

So if you had instead judged Judas - which judgement the Lord forbids of his followers anyways, but, hey, that's present tense and in the past, so it doesn't apply to anyone anymore, right? - and despised him because he was, in your eyes, a sinner and had not eternal life, you would yourself have been damned for rejecting the message he bore from the Lord, is not this correct?



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:36 pm

Paul rejected Stephen's message, and consented to his death.

Is that not correct?

And he accepted Christ on the road to Damascus, became and apostle, and was saved.

Is that not correct?

Maybe this is evidence that the Greek text is inspired, because the Greek verb tenses are in the present, and Paul accepted the content of Stephen's message when he met the risen Christ on the road to Damascus, and was in fact saved.

Take a good look at the Greek verb tenses of your proof texts.

And while you're at it please tell us why you tell the readers of your blog to "trust no man to be their teacher unless he be a man of God, walking in His ways, and keeping His commandments"?

And why Paul told his readers not to fellowship ( or even break bread) with any fornicators or adulterers who called themselves believers?

Do you really believe Christ's law forbids you to reach a conclusion about whether investing in a multi million dollar mall is a proper use of church funds, or whether someone who says he's a believer and is living with his girlfriend is someone you should break bread with?

Or whether Thomas Monsen and the leadership of the LDS church are men of God, walking in His ways and keeping His commandments?

If so, then why do you quote Moroni 23:14 on your blog?

And what about this?
And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee, and when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him. And he said unto me, Depart, for I will send thee far hence unto the Gentiles.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/acts/12.16#16

Did Paul, as a member of the Sanhedren, accept the messenger sent to them at the time he spoke to them?
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:34 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:30 am

MichaelB wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:36 pm
Paul rejected Stephen's message, and consented to his death.

Is that not correct?
Do you have even a single iota (pun intended) of evidence for this assertion? I checked. If you say yes, provide it. Also, where did God commission Stephen to go forth with a message as he did with Judas? It seems to be missing from the Bible.

And he accepted Christ on the road to Damascus, became and apostle, and was saved.

Is that not correct?
Your original misleadingly asserted he accepted Stephen's message on the road to Damascus, and I will point out again that you entirely lack even a single iota of evidence that Saul ever heard even a single word Stephen spoke to the council. Therefore your pointless appeal to Stephen and Paul to avoid the point concerning Judas remains pointless.
And while you're at it please tell us why you tell the readers of your blog to "trust no man to be their teacher unless he be a man of God, walking in His ways, and keeping His commandments"?
So that those who may possibly be helped by that verse can be, who are they to whom God has revealed his ways, and who really do have faith because God has answered them, not merely false and empty claims belied by their abuse of their fellow man. "No man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed to him [Jacob 4:8]." Therefore, there is no way for the faithless, fearful, and unbelieving - such as those who falsely claim to know Jesus exists from merely having read the Bible, and who falsely claim faith, but to whom God does not speak - to know what comes from God and what doesn't.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:50 am

Of course Paul accepted the content of Stephen's message on the road to Damascus.

The content of Stephen's message was that Jesus was ( and is ) the Messiah.
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? And they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One, of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the disposition of angels and have not kept it.
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city, and stoned him, and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet whose name was Saul.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/acts/4.2#2

That was the message he received and rejected as a Pharisee among Pharisees.

And that was the content of the message he received and accepted on the road to Damascus.
Who art thou, Lord? l am Jesus of Nazareth whom thou persecutest.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/acts/12.14#14



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:52 am

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:50 am
Of course Paul accepted the content of Stephen's message on the road to Damascus.
Now you are changing your position without acknowledging your error. Your original was that he accepted Stephen's message, not "the content of Stephen's message;" there exists no Biblical evidence that Saul heard even a single word Stephen ever uttered during his entire life.

Of course, to acknowledge your error would be to admit your point about Stephen and Paul is without merit.

So your pointless appeal to Stephen and Paul to avoid the point about Judas remains pointless.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:57 am

I said he rejected Stephen's message ( at the time it was given before the Sanhedren ), and I said he accepted the content of that message ( from the risen Christ ) on the road to Damascus.

You either misread or misunderstood what I said.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:03 am

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:57 am
I said he rejected Stephen's message ( at the time it was given before the Sanhedren )
It cannot be shown from the Bible that Saul ever heard even a single word Stephen ever uttered in the entirety of Stephen's life. Therefore, your claim is unsupported at best.
I said he accepted the content of that message on the road to Damascus.
No, you originally said he accepted the message itself, not "the content of that message." It has to be Stephen's message, and not "the content of Stephen's message," or else you would have no possible point in bring up the episode - your goal, after all, is to justify saying one who rejected Judas's message could possibly be saved - that is, that someone who rejects a message from God because he judges and condemns the messenger can yet be saved. You brought up Stephen and Saul in the hopes of providing a counterexample - that Saul rejected Stephen's words and was yet saved. You are unable to establish Saul ever even heard a single word Stephen ever uttered in the entirety of Stephen's life, therefore you cannot establish your point.
You either misread or misunderstood what I said.
Or, I both read and understood your originals correctly and you're changing positions without acknowledging your error. But, to admit your error would be to admit your point was meritless from the outset.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:10 am

There would have been no point if I had said Paul had accepted Stephen's message when it was given by Stephen ( before the Sanhedren. )

My whole point was ( and is ) that he rejected it when it was given by Stephen, and the only time I ever said he accepted it was when the content was given to him by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus.

Once again, you either misread or misunderstood what I said.

And as an up and coming leader ( raised at the feet of Gamaliel, and excelling above his peers ) Paul would have been in the council chambers.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:24 am

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:10 am
There would be been no point if I said he had accepted Stephen's message when it was given by Stephen, and the only time I ever said he accepted it was when the content was given by the risen Christ on the road to Damascus.

Once again, you either misread or misunderstood what I said.
Alternatively, I understood that your original claim - that Saul accepted Stephen's message on the road to Damascus - was intended to show that a man may judge and condemn and reject a duly authorized messenger's message from God and yet be saved. Yet you cannot show Saul ever heard even a single word Stephen ever uttered, and cannot show that Saul rejected Stephen's message and was yet saved. But at least that claim was relevant even if you entirely lacked the evidence needed to establish it.

And I understand that your present, altered claim - that Saul accepted "the content of Stephen's message" on the road to Damascus - has no possible relevance to whether or not a man may judge and condemn and reject a message from a duly authorized messenger of God and yet be saved, since you are unable to show that Saul ever heard even a single word Stephen ever uttered, and you therefore cannot show that Saul rejected Stephen's message and was yet saved.

Your first claim was relevant but without evidence and thus unsupportable, and when you saw you erred in making an unsupportable claim you altered your claim to something tautologically true but irrelevant to the subject under discussion.
My whole point was ( and is ) that he rejected it when it was given by Stephen[.]
Yes, I know that was your point - yet you say I misunderstand, when I clearly do not misunderstand. After all, if Saul did not reject the message when it came from Stephen, then you had no point at all - and your whole point is that a man may judge and condemn and reject a message from a duly authorized messenger of God and yet be saved.
And as an up and coming leader ( raised at the feet of Gamaliel, and excelling above his peers ) Paul would have been in the council chambers.
Would he have been? Does the Bible say Saul was in the chambers? The Bible doesn't say that he was in the chambers? Then why do you assert that he was? Of course, for your position to work, Saul just had to be there, but you can't put him at the scene.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:37 am

So you're trying to say that Paul never heard one word of the gospel until he met Christ on the road to Damascus?

These are his words to king Agrippa.
...many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests, and when they were put to death I gave my voice against them. And I punished them oft in every synagogue and compelled them to blaspheme, and being exceedingly mad against them I persecuted them even unto strange cities.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/acts/12.36#36

So you're taking the position that Paul wasn't in the council chambers when Stephen testified before the Sanhedren, heard no part of the proceedings before he consented to Stephen's death, and never heard one word out of any of these saints he persecuted?

P.S. And I never meant to alter any initial position regarding Paul hearing Stephen's message before the Sanhedren, so you clearly misunderstood something, and you're clearly judging ( and misjudging ) my motives for editing some of my texts.

If I changed the way I worded anything, it was only to make my meaning clearer--not to alter my initial position.
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:58 am, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:51 am

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:37 am
So you're trying to say that Paul never heard one word of the gospel until he met Christ on the road to Damascus?
I'm saying you are unable to show from the Bible that a man may reject the message of a duly authorized messenger from God by judging, condemning, and rejecting the messenger, and yet be saved. You tried to counter that by appealing to Saul and Stephen, and I showed you cannot possibly establish your case from the Bible.

I am saying that I am able to show from the Bible that you could not be saved if you rejected even Judas. That poses a problem for you, personally, in your efforts to discriminate between true and false messages, and true and false messengers, as it had ought to. You have no sound basis to proceed to make any such judgements, and no known possibility of success in such judgements. The only surety to be had is in mighty and continual prayer until Heaven answers you directly. There is no point to your continued disputations, contentions, accusations, arguments, logic-chopping, and so on. What you say you want is not to be gained through such means.
Do you think he never heard one word out of any of these saints he persecuted?
Can you show from the Bible Saul ever heard even a single word from an authorized messenger sent from God before the road to Damascus? No? Well, I suppose you better be off trying to find a better counterexample.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:58 am

Do you understand? I don't have to show Saul did not ever hear even a single word from an authorized messenger from God prior to the road to Damascus. All I have to do is show that you cannot prove, or have not proven, that he did.

Being unable to prove that he ever did means your desired outcome, your preferred position, the thing you wish were true, that you can sit in judgement of a duly authorized messenger from God and condemn and reject him and his message and still be saved, is unproven.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:16 am

The saints he admits persecuting were authorized messengers, and Stephen was merely the first he heard, and the one he probably had the least active part in persecuting ( consenting to his death and holding the clothes of those who stoned him outside the council chambers. )

He certainly heard something of the gospel from the others he persecuted too, but let's stay with Stephen, who died crying in a loud voice, "Lord, hold not this sin against them."

Was St. Stephen not preaching the sermon on the mount with his dying breath?

And don't you think Paul heard those words?

Where do you think he was when the witnesses laid their clothes at his feet?

In the council chambers ( where he would have heard Stephen's whole speech ), or at the scene of Stephen's death ( where he would have heard his dying cry )?
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city, and stoned him, and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, and he, calling upon God, said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge! And when he had said this he fell asleep.
http://scriptures.info/Scriptures/Searc ... eFilter=nt
...and when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/acts/12.16#16

Do you still say there's no biblical evidence that Paul heard even one word that Stephen spoke?



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:50 am

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:16 am
The saints he admits persecuting were authorized messengers
This assertion is unsupported and unsupportable from the Bible.
and Stephen was merely the first he heard
That Saul ever heard even a single word Stephen uttered is unsupported and unsupportable from the Bible.
and the one he probably had the least active part in persecuting ( consenting to his death and holding the clothes of those who stoned him outside the council chambers. )
You have no Biblical grounds for assessing probability in this.
He certainly heard something of the gospel from the others he persecuted too
Your certainty in this matter is not justified by the Biblical text, which does not give any evidence whatsoever for that proposition.
, but let's stay with Stephen, who died crying in a loud voice, "Lord, hold not this sin against them."
Which the Bible also does not say Saul heard, therefore you have no actual grounds for supposing Saul did hear them.
Where do you think he was when the witnesses laid their clothes at his feet?
The Bible doesn't say, therefore I don't think. But you're free to make shit up, as you have been.
In the council chambers ( where he would have heard Stephen's whole speech )
The Bible does not say Saul was in the council chambers, but you're free to make shit up.
or at the scene of Stephen's death ( where he would have heard his dying cry )?
The Bible does not say that he would have, neither does it say that he did, but you're free to make shit up.
Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, and cast him out of the city, and stoned him, and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, and he, calling upon God, said, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. And he kneeled down and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge! And when he had said this he fell asleep.
http://scriptures.info/Scriptures/Searc ... eFilter=nt
...and when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/acts/12.16#16

Do you still say there's no biblical evidence that Paul heard even one word that Stephen spoke?
Yes, and if you were honest, you would as well, instead of making shit up. And I will maintain that position because it is the truth, while your position remains without any evidence whatsoever, and consists, as always, of sheer assumption, suppositions, faulty paraphrasing, wishing, rhetorical posturing, and false claims which crumble on examination.
log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:58 am
Do you understand? I don't have to show Saul did not ever hear even a single word from an authorized messenger from God prior to the road to Damascus. All I have to do is show that you cannot prove, or have not proven, that he did.

Being unable to prove that he ever did means your desired outcome, your preferred position, the thing you wish were true, that you can sit in judgement of a duly authorized messenger from God and condemn and reject him and his message and still be saved, is unproven.
Oh, and by the by - let's assume - and it is a pure assumption, unsupported by evidence - that Saul did hear Stephen's very last words as he died. Even this assumption still doesn't help your cause, does it? Unless, of course, you are going to assume Stephen's message from God was "O Lord, lay not this sin to their charge."

Note I have not granted your assumption that saints, as such, are necessarily authorized messengers from God, and that they necessarily also have a message from God.

There is no reason from the Bible to claim Stephen was a messenger.

And where does it say he was a saint?

You must prove every last one of your claims from the Bible, and not merely assert them unsupported.



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