If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

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MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:00 pm

I think you consider yourself an authorized messenger, and I just want to make sure I'm hearing you correctly.

Stephen died with a prayer on his lips for those who were throwing actual stones at him, but you're saying ( I think ) that those who have rejected your message online, and banned you from their forums, can't be saved?

Likewise those who failed to accept the covenant offered September 3rd, as you did?

Even though you admitted, in a recent blog post that you lied when you said you knew it was of God ( because you hadn't received an answer from God when you were petitioning Him for one, and had no confidence when you were asked if you knew it was of God, and answered "yes" )?

And no one who rejected Denver's message a year or two ago could accept it now, or could have accepted it with more confidence than you did Sept. 3rd?

And poor Paul really had no idea what was going on when he consented to Stephen's death, because he never heard a word he said and just happened to be standing outside when he was asked to watch some clothes?

Because if he had heard Stephen, he couldn't have been saved?

And Stephen wasn't preaching the essence of the sermon on the mount ( returning good for evil ) when he died saying "Lord, hold not this sin against them"?

And, the words of scripture ( that he cried this out on a loud voice ) don't imply that the man who became the apostle Paul ( who was standing there watching the clothes of those who stoned Stephen, and consenting to his death ) would have heard him?

Is that what you're saying?

And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem and sent messengers before his face, and they went and entered into a village of the Samaritans to make ready for him. And the Samaritans would not receive him because his face was turned as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples, James and John, saw that they would not receive him, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned and rebuked them and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. For the Son of Man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/luke/8.1#1

P.S. If you are an authorized messenger, who's walking in God's ways, and keeping His commandments, and you wanted to know if this covenant was of God before you entered into it, and you were petitioning Him for an answer ( and if He doesn't expect or require you to examine things yourself, do your due diligence, or use the reason He gave you ), why didn't you receive an answer?



log
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:34 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:00 pm
I think you consider yourself an authorized messenger[.]
Can you find any place where I have asserted I am an authorized messenger? No?

And if I have nowhere claimed to be an authorized messenger, does that imply that I am not? No?
Even though you admitted, in a recent blog post that you lied when you said you knew it was of God ( because you hadn't received an answer from God when you were petitioning Him for one, and had no confidence when you were asked if you knew it was of God, and answered "yes" )?
The irony is in using this against me, you have to agree that it is lying to overstate one's knowledge in order to say I sinned.

Yet you are on public record demonstrating that you of yourself do (claim to) not consider it to be lying when you yourself overstate mere belief as knowledge, and that you do it all the time - you say you know stuff because you read it in the Bible. (And you are on public record as rejecting the Bible whenever you find it convenient to do so. And you are also on public record in this thread as imputing to the Bible things the Bible doesn't say.)

So if you aren't lying when you say you know what you do not know, then by that same standard neither was I lying. If I was lying, then by that same standard so are you whenever you claim to know anything merely because you read it in the Bible.

To justify your lies you must justify mine. To condemn my lie you must condemn your lies. Funny how that works.
P.S. If you are an authorized messenger, who's walking in God's ways, and keeping His commandments, and you wanted to know if this covenant was of God before you entered into it, and you were petitioning Him for an answer ( and if He doesn't expect or require you to examine things yourself, do your due diligence, or use the reason He gave you ), why didn't you receive an answer?
If you have faith as you claim - if you even merely believe - why has God never answered one of your prayers? Why do you turn to fortune cookies and numerancy or whatever it's called, or what effectively amounts to reading tea leaves or other superstitions, rather than calling upon God until he answers?



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:12 pm

I never said you asserted yourself an authorized messenger, I said I think you regard yourself as such.

And God's answered many of my prayers, and I thank Him for that.

But I have been severely sensitive to things that could be considered omens at times.

Mostly at times when I was being told by Mormon missionaries, or Mormons online, that instead of studying and meditating on the scriptures I should ask God personal questions, and wait to receive personal answers in some unspecified way.

That may be sign-seeking, and it may be a sin, and I may be guilty of that at times, but ( by the grace of God ) I'm doing better now.

I thank Him for that, and for the many times He has answered my prayers.

And I think the fortune cookie thing has more to do with avoiding the occasion to sin than sign-seeking, because I opened one of the things against my better judgement, when someone I shouldn't have listened to insisted, at a time when I was weak.

It wasn't that I was seeking a sign then, it was that I didn't understand what seemed and odd coincidence.

But I was thinking about that recently, asked God for more understanding, and remembered something I had once heard of but hadn't given much thought to.

Probably because it seemed so clearly demonic to me at the time.

It was something called "the milk miracle," and while it may well have been demonic, the scientific explanation is called ""capillary action."

If this phenomenon was demonic, God allowed demons to use things to deceive a lot of Hindus around the world, and if the atmospheric conditions in multiple Hindu temples around the world at that time were conducive to capillary action, God allowed that coincidence to mislead a lot of people ( perhaps because they were already proud, or vain, or self-righteous. )

Either way, it would seem that God does sometimes allow appearances to be misleading, and we should all guard against opening the door to deception with some sin.
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:17 pm

God's answered many of my prayers, and I thank Him for that.

But I have been severely sensitive to things that could be considered omens at times.

Mostly at times when I was being told by Mormon missionaries, or Mormons online, that instead of studying and meditating on the scriptures I should ask God personal questions, and wait to receive personal answers in some unspecified way.

That may be sign-seeking, and it may be a sin, and I may be guilty of that at times, but ( by the grace of God ) I'm doing better now.

I thank Him for that, and for the many times He has answered my prayers.

And I think the fortune cookie thing has more to do with failing to avoid the near occasion of sin than sign-seeking, because I opened one against my better judgement, when someone I shouldn't have listened to insisted, at a time when I was weak.

It wasn't that I was seeking a sign then, it was that I didn't understand what seemed an odd coincidence.

But I was thinking about that recently, asked God for more understanding, and remembered something I had once heard of but hadn't given much thought to.

Probably because it seemed so clearly demonic to me at the time.

It was something called "the milk miracle," and while it may well have been demonic, the scientific explanation is called ""capillary action."

If this phenomenon was demonic, God allowed demons to use things to deceive a lot of Hindus around the world, and if the atmospheric conditions in multiple Hindu temples around the world at that time were conducive to capillary action, God allowed that coincidence to mislead a lot of people ( perhaps because they were already proud, or vain, or self-righteous. )

Either way, it would seem that God does sometimes allow appearances to be misleading, and we should all guard against opening the door to deception with some sin.

BTW: My personal faith probably doesn't amount to a grain of mustard seed, but does yours?

Have you moved any mountains lately?

Have you received an answer to the question you've been asking God?

And do you still believe that God spoke to you, and reprimanded you for criticizing the leadership of the LDS ( speaking stout words against His servants, as you put it ), after you first read PtHG?

On November 1rst, 2013 ( on the LDS Freedom Forum ) you said God had spoken to you in that way, and explained to you why the mainstream Mormon leadership was teaching what it was teaching.

Do you still believe He spoke to you then?

And do you still believe you heard and understood Him correctly?



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:15 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:17 pm
God's answered many of my prayers, and I thank Him for that.

But I have been severely sensitive to things that could be considered omens at times.
In fact, are not all of what you are herein calling God's answers to your prayers simply these omens / portents which you have decided are answers but do not, in fact, know were answers at all?
I thank Him for that, and for the many times He has answered my prayers.
In fact, is it not true that you do not know God has answered any of your prayers, ever, and that what you are herein calling "answers" are simply "omens / portents" like this:
And I think the fortune cookie thing has more to do with failing to avoid the near occasion of sin than sign-seeking, because I opened one against my better judgement, when someone I shouldn't have listened to insisted, at a time when I was weak.

It wasn't that I was seeking a sign then, it was that I didn't understand what seemed an odd coincidence.
A simple "yes," or a simple "no," will do in response.
BTW: My personal faith probably doesn't amount to a grain of mustard seed, but does yours?

Have you moved any mountains lately?
Ask God if my faith concerns you. Ah, yes, that's precisely the point: God hasn't answered you, hence your reaching for portents / omens / polling the crowd / setting men against each other to see who wins (scripturally called "causing divisions" - Paul said to avoid those who engage in such things, didn't he?).
And do you still believe that God spoke to you, and reprimanded you for criticizing the leadership of the LDS ( speaking stout words against His servants, as you put it ), after you first read PtHG?

On November 1rst, 2013 ( on the LDS Freedom Forum ) you said God had spoken to you in that way, and explained to you why the mainstream Mormon leadership was teaching what it was teaching.

Do you still believe He spoke to you then?

And do you still believe you heard and understood Him correctly?
I am unable to visit that website due to having been banned, and as the contents of that website are under copyright by Brian Meacham, you cannot legally reproduce them here. I will not accept a paraphrase of my words from you, given your demonstrated penchant for poor reading and lies.

Therefore all I can say is whatever I myself wrote at the time represented my true and honest belief at that time.



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:23 pm

The answer to your question is "no."

I in fact had a very vivid dream recently that I consider too sacred to discuss with you, here, at this time.

And I was praying for the people in the path of hurricane Irma too.

That hurricane was expected to be much deadlier than it was, and God answered my prayers ( and I would hope yours ) by having mercy on the people in it's path.

You did pray for them too, didn't you?
I am unable to visit that website due to having been banned, and as the contents of that website are under copyright by Brian Meacham, you cannot legally reproduce them here. I will not accept a paraphrase of my words from you, given your demonstrated penchant for poor reading and lies.

Therefore all I can say is whatever I myself wrote at the time represented my true and honest belief at that time.
In other words, what you said God told you in that post on Nov. 1, 2013 only represents what you thought He had said to you at the time you posted that post, and might not represent anything He actually said to you at any time prior to that, or anything you might like to reassert His having said to you in a post here today.

I understand.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:40 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:23 pm
The answer to your question is "no."

I in fact had a very vivid dream recently that I consider too sacred to discuss with you, here, at this time.
And you *know* this dream to be an answer from God, correct?
And I was praying for the people in the path of hurricane Irma too.

That hurricane was expected to be much deadlier than it was, and God answered my prayers ( and I would hope yours ) by having mercy on the people in it's path.

You did pray for them too, didn't you?
Ask God if my prayers to him concern you. Ah, but that's the point: God doesn't, to your knowledge, answer you. That's why you settle for portents / omens / coincidences or synchronicity / "very vivid dreams" / polling the audience / causing divisions, and so on, and call them "answers" when you do not know they are any such thing, is this not the case?

And Jesus commanded us that our prayers shall be private, and not announce them before men as self-justifying hypocrites will do, right?
I am unable to visit that website due to having been banned, and as the contents of that website are under copyright by Brian Meacham, you cannot legally reproduce them here. I will not accept a paraphrase of my words from you, given your demonstrated penchant for poor reading and lies.

Therefore all I can say is whatever I myself wrote at the time represented my true and honest belief at that time.
In other words, what you said God told you in that post on Nov. 1, 2013 only represents what you thought He had said to you at the time you posted that post, and might not represent anything He actually said to you at any time prior to that, or anything you might like to reassert His having said to you in a post here today.

I understand.
If that's what it pleases you to understand.



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:33 pm

log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:51 am
I'm saying you are unable to show from the Bible that a man may reject the message of a duly authorized messenger from God by judging, condemning, and rejecting the messenger, and yet be saved.
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he showed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you, as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this he breathed on them and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whosesoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them, and whosesoever sins ye retain they are retained.
But Thomas, one of the twelve called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within and Thomas with them, then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger and behold my hands, and reach hither thy hand and thrust it into my side, and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/john/12

So were the ten disciples who told Thomas they had seen the risen Lord authorized messengers?

And did Thomas reject their testimony?

And was he saved?
And it came to pass that after he had poured out his whole soul to God, the voice of the Lord came to him, saying, Blessed art thou Alma. And blessed are they who were baptized in the waters of Mormon. Thou art blessed because of thy exceeding faith in the words alone of my servant Abinadi. And blessed are they because of their exceeding faith in the words alone which thou hast spoken unto them. And blessed art thou because thou hast established a church among this people. And they shall be established, and they shall be my people. Yea, blessed is this people, who are willing to bear my name; for in my name shall they be called, and they are mine. And because thou hast inquired of me concerning the transgressor, thou art blessed. Thou art my servant, and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life. And thou shalt serve me and go forth in my name and shall gather together my sheep. And he that will hear my voice shall be my sheep, and him shall ye receive into the church, and him will I also receive. For behold, this is my church...Now the sons of Mosiah were numbered among the unbelievers, and also one of the sons of Alma was numbered among them, he being called Alma after his father. Nevertheless, he became a very wicked and an idolatrous man; and he was a man of many words and did speak much flattery to the people. Therefore he led many of the people to do after the manner of his iniquities. And he became a great hinderment to the prosperity of the church of God, stealing away the hearts of the people, causing much dissension among the people, giving a chance for the enemy of God to exercise his power over them.
And now it came to pass that while he was going about to destroy the church of God, for he did go about secretly with the sons of Mosiah, seeking to destroy the church and to lead astray the people of the Lord contrary to the commandments of God or even the king. And as I said unto you, as they were going about rebelling against God, behold the angel of the Lord appeared unto them
, and he descended as it were in a cloud. And he spake as it were with a voice of thunder, which caused the earth to shake upon which they stood. And so great was their astonishment that they fell to the earth and understood not the words which he spake unto them. Nevertheless, he cried again, saying, Alma, arise and stand forth. For why persecuteth thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said, This is my church, and I will establish it, and nothing shall overthrow it save it is the transgression of my people. And again the angel said, Behold the Lord hath heard the prayers of his servant Alma, who is thy father. For he has prayed with much faith concerning thee, that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth. Therefore for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith. And now behold can ye dispute the power of God? For behold, doth not my voice shake the earth? And can ye not also behold me before you? And I am sent from God. Now I say unto thee, Go, and remember the captivity of thy fathers in the land of Helam and in the land of Nephi, and remember how great things he has done for them. For they were in bondage, and he has delivered them. And now I say unto thee, Alma, Go thy way and seek to destroy the church no more, that their prayers may be answered. And this even if thou wilt of thyself be cast off.
And now it came to pass that these were the last words which the angel spake unto Alma, and he departed. And now Alma and those that were with him fell again to the earth, for great was their astonishment. For with their own eyes they had beheld an angel of the Lord, and his voice was as thunder which shook the earth. And they knew that there was nothing save the power of God that could shake the earth and cause it to tremble as though it would part asunder. And now the astonishment of Alma was so great that he became dumb, that he could not open his mouth; yea, and he became weak, even that he could not move his hands. Therefore he was taken by those that were with him and carried helpless, even until he was laid before his father. And they rehearsed unto his father all that had happened unto them. And his father rejoiced, for he knew that it was the power of God.
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/bofm/mosiah/11.19#19

It suites you to assume ( without evidence ) that Paul didn't hear Stephen's testimony before the Sanhedren, but do you also assume that Alma the younger never heard a word of his father's testimony?

And wasn't his father ( Alma senior ) an authorized messenger of God?

And did he not reject his father's testimony?

And was he not saved?

And has it occurred to you that the Galatians could clearly reject Paul, or Peter, or any other authorized messenger, if they preached any gospel to them that differed from the one they had already received ( and they would still be saved )?
...though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed
http://scriptures.info/scriptures/nt/galatians/1
Last edited by MichaelB on Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.



log
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:43 pm

1. Does the Bible say Thomas rejected an authorized message from an authorized messenger? Yes / no.

2. Does the Bible anywhere say Thomas was saved? Yes / no.

3. Is Alma in the Bible? Yes / no.

4. Don't you already reject the gospel Paul preached (in particular, and potentially not limited to, 1 Corinthians 13:7)? Yes / no.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:57 pm

It suites you to assume ( without evidence ) that Paul didn't hear Stephen's testimony before the Sanhedren, but do you also assume that Alma the younger never heard a word of his father's testimony?
You're lying. I pointed out you cannot prove Saul heard Stephen - that is, you merely assumed, without evidence, that Saul heard Stephen.



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:09 pm

The women at the tomb were told to tell the disciples.

They did.

The disciples told Thomas, and he did not believe them.

Thomas was with the other disciples on the day of Pentecost, he risked his life to preach the gospel with the others, and he was beaten by the Sanhedren with the others.

And didn't Jesus say that of those the Father had given Him, He had lost only one ( that the scripture might be fulfilled )?

And didn't Jesus say that Thomas wasn't of the world?

He suffered real persecution, and are you wiling to throw him under the bus?

And what difference does it make if Alma isn't in the Bible?

You seem to be arguing that an individual cannot be saved if they've heard the testimony of an authorized messenger, and haven't believed it.

Nowhere on this thread have you recognized the possibility that someone who's heard the message of an authorized messenger, without believing it, might repent when given more light, but the book of Mormon clearly indicates that Alma the younger did just that.

And I believe you covenanted you'd accept the restoration edition of the book of Mormon as scripture on September 4th, did you not?

So was Alma the younger's father an authorized messenger?

And did he and his friends reject both the messenger and the message before their run in with the angel?
Last edited by MichaelB on Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:13 pm

log wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:57 pm
It suites you to assume ( without evidence ) that Paul didn't hear Stephen's testimony before the Sanhedren, but do you also assume that Alma the younger never heard a word of his father's testimony?
You're lying. I pointed out you cannot prove Saul heard Stephen - that is, you merely assumed, without evidence, that Saul heard Stephen.
I'm not lying.

You merely assume Saul ( Paul ) did not hear Stephen.

If I failed to present conclusive proof that he did hear Stephen, you failed to produce one shred of evidence that he didn't.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:34 pm

You are lying.
log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:58 am
Do you understand? I don't have to show Saul did not ever hear even a single word from an authorized messenger from God prior to the road to Damascus. All I have to do is show that you cannot prove, or have not proven, that he did.

Being unable to prove that he ever did means your desired outcome, your preferred position, the thing you wish were true, that you can sit in judgement of a duly authorized messenger from God and condemn and reject him and his message and still be saved, is unproven.



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:38 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:09 pm
The women at the tomb were told to tell the disciples.

They did.

The disciples told Thomas, and he did not believe them.
So, that's a "no," the Bible does not say Thomas rejected an authorized message from authorized messengers.

Why do you continue to try to deceive?
He suffered real persecution, and are you wiling to throw him under the bus?
So, that's a "no," the Bible does not anywhere say Thomas was saved.

Why do you continue to try to deceive?

And haven't you thrown Jesus and Paul under the bus - by saying their words are false?
MichaelB wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:09 pm

And what difference does it make if Alma isn't in the Bible?
The difference it makes is actually addressing what I said, versus trying to deceptively move the goalposts.
You seem to be arguing that an individual cannot be saved if they've heard the testimony of an authorized messenger, and haven't believed it.
And here I noticed you quoted my actual claim, so there's no excuse for that.
MichaelB wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:33 pm
log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:51 am
I'm saying you are unable to show from the Bible that a man may reject the message of a duly authorized messenger from God by judging, condemning, and rejecting the messenger, and yet be saved.
Instead of conceding, you're lying and moving the goalposts. And the incident with Thomas isn't even relevant to this claim, as you admitted above.
Nowhere on this thread have you recognized the possibility that someone who's heard the message of an authorized messenger, without believing it, might repent when given more light, but the book of Mormon clearly indicates that Alma the younger did just that.
As we can see, it's not relevant to the actual claim I made. But it is relevant to the claim you wish I made. And it's odd, here's Jesus again: "Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have." It seems that Jesus - in the Bible - indicates that when you don't believe, you don't get more light, but what light you seem to have shall be taken.
And I believe you covenanted you'd accept the restoration edition of the book of Mormon as scripture on September 4th, did you not?
The covenant doesn't say that. Don't bother trying to prove otherwise; you shall fail.
So was Alma the younger's father an authorized messenger?
Was he in the Bible?
And did he and his friends reject both the messenger and the message before their run in with the angel?
Was that in the Bible?



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:59 pm

You started this thread, and you seem to be trying to prove that an individual is permanently lost once they've heard an authorized messenger, and rejected him.

At least I thought that's what you were trying to prove in this thread, and I thought that's why you were arguing that Paul hadn't heard Stephen's testimony before the Sanhedren.

So let's forget Paul.

Wouldn't that mean that Alma the younger and his friends couldn't be saved?

So if the book of Mormon is true, your desired outcome, your preferred position, the thing you wish were true--that anyone who has heard you, and doesn't believe you, is damned--cannot stand.

And it would seem you've conceded that point by trying to move the goal posts back to where they were.

Of course, it is possible I've misunderstood what you were trying to prove when you started this thread.

Do you believe it's possible for someone to reject an authorized messenger, repent, and then be saved?

And are you only interested in winning an argument here, or are you interested in the truth?



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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:11 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:59 pm
You started this thread, and you seem to be trying to prove that an individual is permanently lost once they've heard an authorized messenger, and rejected him.
That is to say you don't like my actual claim and are trying to make it into something else to undermine it. So you continue to lie even after I showed what the real claim I made is.
You seem to be arguing that an individual cannot be saved if they've heard the testimony of an authorized messenger, and haven't believed it.
And here I noticed you quoted my actual claim, so there's no excuse for that.
MichaelB wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:33 pm
log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:51 am
I'm saying you are unable to show from the Bible that a man may reject the message of a duly authorized messenger from God by judging, condemning, and rejecting the messenger, and yet be saved.
Instead of conceding, you're lying and moving the goalposts.
At least I thought that's what you were trying to prove in this thread.
I corrected you multiple times. There's no excuse for that.
So if the book of Mormon is true, your desired outcome, your preferred position, the thing you wish were true--that anyone who has heard you, and doesn't believe you is damned--cannot stand.
Ah, there's the claim Michael was really arguing against, a claim nobody made, the claim he wishes I made.
Do you believe it's possible for someone to reject an authorized messenger, repent, and then be saved?
Oh, sure: JST Matt 21:33 For he that believed not John concerning me cannot believe me, except he first repent.

That is, repent of not believing John.

JST Matt 21:34 And except ye repent, the preaching of John shall condemn you in the day of judgment.

But that doesn't matter to you, since you do not believe Joseph.
And are you only interested in winning an argument here, or are you interested in the truth?
There is no argument; my claim - you are unable to show from the Bible that a man may reject the message of a duly authorized messenger from God by judging, condemning, and rejecting the messenger, and yet be saved - is true. You have contended and disputed mightily, and have lied and used other deceitful methods of rhetoric, to overturn it to no effect.

Maybe you shouldn't argue with me. Just a thought.

And no, I don't argue with you. You come to me and argue with me, or go to others, such as Matthew, and try to cause divisions and try to get them to take issue with what I say. It goes in one direction only.



MichaelB
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:32 pm

Thanks for the clarification.

It makes a difference.

You have not proved what I thought you were trying to prove here.

Now let's get back to the Galatians.

Do you deny that they would have been right to reject Paul, or Peter, or any other previously authorized messenger ( including Judas, if he were still alive ) who preached a gospel that differed from the one they had received under Paul's ministry ( and that they would have been saved while rejecting that messenger )?

Or that anyone who heard Judas would have been right to reject him if he wasn't saying exactly what the other Apostles were saying?

Come to think of it, didn't they go out two by two?

And didn't Jesus give them power to cast out demons, and heal the sick?

And doesn't the book of Mormon say that no one could perform such miracles unless he were cleansed from his sins?

And didn't Jesus say that Judas wasn't clean?

So was Judas ever really an authorized messenger, healing the sick, and casting out demons, or was it only his partner who was truly an authorized messenger?

If someone knew Judas was a thief, and rejected his testimony, but accepted his partner's, or rejected both of them and came to believe in Christ only after the crucifixion, and the darkness, and the earth quake, and the miracle of Pentecost, would he not be saved?

So what is it exactly that you've been trying to prove here?

Maybe it doesn't matter, because you haven't proved what I thought you were trying to prove, and that's what interests me.

And we do seem to be the only one's who find this topic interesting.

And I'm tired.

Goodnight.



log
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:38 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:32 pm
Now let's get back to the Galatians.
Let's not.
And doesn't the book of Mormon say that no one could perform such miracles unless he were cleansed from his sins?
No. (Think carefully and reread your source before you start trying to argue.)
So what is it exactly that you've been trying to prove here?
Both you and I have cited my claim multiple times. Go reread it until you understand it. It is, after all, in common American English.



log
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Re: If You Rejected Judas Iscariot's Message, Could You Be Saved?

Post by log » Tue Sep 19, 2017 10:16 am

I'm saying you are unable to show from the Bible that a man may reject the message of a duly authorized messenger from God by judging, condemning, and rejecting the messenger, and yet be saved.
Notice here: I am saying (and I am repeating myself) you are not able to show from the Bible that a man may reject the message of a duly authorized messenger from God by [means of] judging, condemning, and rejecting the messenger, and yet be saved.

You ask:
Do you deny that they would have been right to reject Paul, or Peter, or any other previously authorized messenger ( including Judas, if he were still alive ) who preached a gospel that differed from the one they had received under Paul's ministry ( and that they would have been saved while rejecting that messenger )?

Or that anyone who heard Judas would have been right to reject him if he wasn't saying exactly what the other Apostles were saying?
How can you, who personally reject Paul's gospel (1 Corinthians 13:7, not to mention sundry of the Lord's teachings), judge the messages brought by others by whether they conform to the gospel that already you have disbelieved and personally rejected?

Haven't you accepted Augustine's denial of 1 Corinthians 13:7: that charity does not believe all things, when by the standard Paul gives the Galatians, you ought to have held Augustine to be accursed because he contradicted what Paul taught: that charity believes all things?



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