What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

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inho
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What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by inho » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:18 am

As an outsider to the Remnant movement, I have followed with interest the Scripture project. However, there are some things that I haven't clearly understood. My questions are sincere and the stem from my curiosity, I am not trying to question the project or anything.
  • Why are some new revelations added when they seem to have very little substance? For example, there is a revelation that is only one sentence long. It is of course a good reminder that everybody needs to repent from their iniquities. However, the same message can be found in several other revelations. My guess is that it is better to include all Joseph's revelations than trying to decide where to draw the line. It is hard to say when a revelation is not significant enough. But shouldn't the message be more important than the messenger? Does just the fact that a revelation comes from JS make it important enough?
  • I thought historical accuracy was a key factor for choosing the content coming from Joseph. That is why part of the LDS D&C was rejected. However, Joseph Smith's last dream is included. The original source for it is a letter written by Cyrus Wheelock in 1854, several years after the martyrdom. This is a second hand source and somewhat late reminiscence.
  • Denver Snuffer is the only contemporary person, whose writings are included. Is this only because there were no other contemporary writings submitted? Could there be scripture from someone else? I have understood that there have been others, who at least have and likely still are participating in the fellowships, that claim to have seen Christ. Could these experiences be part of the scriptures?



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Matthew
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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by Matthew » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:28 am

inho wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:18 am
As an outsider to the Remnant movement, I have followed with interest the Scripture project. However, there are some things that I haven't clearly understood. My questions are sincere and the stem from my curiosity, I am not trying to question the project or anything.
  • Why are some new revelations added when they seem to have very little substance? For example, there is a revelation that is only one sentence long. It is of course a good reminder that everybody needs to repent from their iniquities. However, the same message can be found in several other revelations. My guess is that it is better to include all Joseph's revelations than trying to decide where to draw the line. It is hard to say when a revelation is not significant enough. But shouldn't the message be more important than the messenger? Does just the fact that a revelation comes from JS make it important enough?
  • I thought historical accuracy was a key factor for choosing the content coming from Joseph. That is why part of the LDS D&C was rejected. However, Joseph Smith's last dream is included. The original source for it is a letter written by Cyrus Wheelock in 1854, several years after the martyrdom. This is a second hand source and somewhat late reminiscence.
  • Denver Snuffer is the only contemporary person, whose writings are included. Is this only because there were no other contemporary writings submitted? Could there be scripture from someone else? I have understood that there have been others, who at least have and likely still are participating in the fellowships, that claim to have seen Christ. Could these experiences be part of the scriptures?
inho wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:18 am
Why are some new revelations added when they seem to have very little substance?
I believe the project started with the goal of capturing all of the revelations and to restore it to an original unmolested work. It departed from that.
inho wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:18 am
I thought historical accuracy was a key factor for choosing the content coming from Joseph.
My guess is if something is attributed to Joseph Smith, and it is believed as a true principle or revelation it is added if even questionable. I recently read a study of the King Follet Sermon, that someone did a forensic analysis of the writing/speech style and that it is mostly from Brigham Young and his style of speech and writing and not that of Joseph's.
inho wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:18 am
Denver Snuffer is the only contemporary person, whose writings are included.
Denver Snuffer is the only person that is currently recognized, others have submitted their own revelations and I believe some have been adopted, maybe, but most that were submitted are or were rejected, anyone could submit what they believe is material worthy to be added and for it to be voted upon - Denver's words were pretty much accepted without dispute from my understanding. While there are others the Lord has sent with a message like Samuel the Lamanite they were not recorded, added, or even received well and have been ignored or altogether rejected. Unless Denver vouches for the person or their words it is likely if even submitted they will be rejected. For any number of reasons.




stillwater
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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by stillwater » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:39 pm

I recently read a study of the King Follet Sermon, that someone did a forensic analysis of the writing/speech style and that it is mostly from Brigham Young and his style of speech and writing and not that of Joseph's.
I am not sure what relevance this has for the topic of this thread, but regardless I would like to read that study. Joseph's delivery of that sermon is well-attested by multiple firsthand contemporary recorders.

Edited to add: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html
I can't imagine anyone concocting a conspiracy theory to explain those sources, hence my interest in reading the study you mentioned.
Last edited by stillwater on Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by HeberC » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:48 pm

My understanding is that anything attributed to Joseph Smith is not accepted unless it is in his handwriting.

I'm not aware of statements attributed to Joseph, that are questionable but are verified by Denver as being by Joseph, being accepted, but that may be the case.

Statements or revelations by other people may in fact be revelation but not accepted. I believe the reason for this is the focus of this restoration is narrower than it was in Joseph's day. I believe that we, as a whole, are no better than the people in Joseph's day. Joseph's people were given more than they could chew. Even with this narrowed focus, some people will still be sidetracked. Denver has made a priority of not seeking popularity. He doesn't want anyone to believe him or even like him. People who use the terms, "the Snuffer movement" or "Snufferites" have missed the point and it's their own fault.

We have the benefit of hindsight to notice where the people of Joseph's day messed up. We can compare that time to present events and see how they line up with where the Lord wants us to go. Denver has made church history easy to understand for people like me who are too lazy to do the homework. The primary sources are always sited so no honest person can accuse Denver of dishonesty or demagoguery.

(I got off-topic and soap-boxy)



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by stillwater » Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:54 pm

HeberC wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:48 pm
My understanding is that anything attributed to Joseph Smith is not accepted unless it is in his handwriting.
I don't believe this is accurate. Very few, if any, of the revelations in the Teachings and Commandments would remain if this were the case, to say nothing of the Bible translation, Joseph Smith history, and the Book of Mormon. The man used scribes. I believe there is some material in Joseph's own hand in the new scriptures (the 1832 First Vision account comes to mind), but very little.


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Matthew
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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by Matthew » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:07 pm

HeberC wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:48 pm
We have the benefit of hindsight to notice where the people of Joseph's day messed up. We can compare that time to present events and see how they line up with where the Lord wants us to go.
I agree.

Joseph's people rejected the Book of Mormon, came under condemnation for taking it lightly.

In Denver's covenant letter he shared and later read from the Lord. The Lord likewise condemned the people today, for "rejecting truth" even when it is given in plainness. It is one thing to believe falsely or to be mistaken, and another thing to reject the truth altogether, the truth of what? The Book of Mormon! And what it espouses and teaches, that you should have no other gods before you, to help the poor and needy, to keep the commandments, to not bear false witness, to NOT trust in the arm of flesh so on and so forth. Many trust Denver - wrong or right, that is yours or anyone's place to determine if they need to repent. Many are so enamored with Denver they cannot hear the Lord when He sends others to proclaim His words. Nor do they hear Him when He speaks by the still small voice to their souls. People are not willing to wait on the Lord and wait for Him to call you and invite you to Him.

I took that letter as a rebuke. Not as an attaboy.

Not making the same mistakes? Like not keeping the commandments, not helping the poor, seeking after things they should not. Fighting and contending with one another, not learning to be tolerable when disagreeable and so forth.

It seems as a whole you folks, not you personally, are lock stock and barrel with the troubles of the early saints - already.

Would Denver say, that your minds have become darkened because you have depended upon him too much? Maybe one day he will say those words. But anyways, its too late for some. He is the legal administrator of the covenant. You are bound to him and to one another. He is your Moses. Bad or good, I am indifferent. What you do with it, is what matters - if it brings you to Christ I am all for it. If it is a stumbling block for some, I hope they will repent and recover and return to Christ.

In the end, if you do not keep the Lords commandments, do not come pure in heart, if you do not the things that He says - you have no promise, no blessings and no reward, only a covenant that condemns and curses you for not obeying the Lord and keeping His sayings and doing His works. Period. The Lord says it would have been better had you not known Him if you depart from Him.

This was something we all covenanted to do when we were baptized I thought, to help and care for one another, and if you did not covenant to take upon you the name of Christ, to keep ALL His commandments, to follow Him, to do these things He has said to do, then when you were baptized to what end were you baptized in the first place?

Christ said, that "His church" are those that repent and come unto Him. His church. Which is a covenant body of believers or as some might call it a group covenant. Covenanting with the Lord to keep His commandments and you obtain a remission of your sins by so doing and you are given a changed heart. Part of His commandments is to help one another, both temporary and spiritually. To strengthen one another. You become His church when you are repentant and come unto Him, the sign of repentance is baptism... As Paul taught it is by baptism that you become a covenant body, and by rights you inherit the blessings of Abraham and are Abraham's seed, one seed which is Christ's and are no longer Jew or Gentile but all in one in Christ and heirs to the blessing and promises given unto Abraham and His seed... and did not Abraham obtain the blessings and promises of the Fathers that lived anciently and are we not partakers of this if we repent and come unto Christ? We are.

But I have gone away from the topic as well....



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by Matthew » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:11 pm

stillwater wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:39 pm
I recently read a study of the King Follet Sermon, that someone did a forensic analysis of the writing/speech style and that it is mostly from Brigham Young and his style of speech and writing and not that of Joseph's.
I am not sure what relevance this has for the topic of this thread, but regardless I would like to read that study. Joseph's delivery of that sermon is well-attested by multiple firsthand contemporary recorders.

Edited to add: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html
I can't imagine anyone concocting a conspiracy theory to explain those sources, hence my interest in reading the study you mentioned.
I will need to see if I still have it saved on my iPad when I get home. It examines D&C 132, and the King Follet discourse and they believe that both are from Brigham Young or that they are heavily edited by Brigham Young.

In any regard.... I believe the King Follet Sermon and most of D&C 132.



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by HeberC » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:45 pm

Of course, stillwater, but Joseph had the opportunity to proofread what his scribes wrote. Those writings came forth during his lifetime.



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by stillwater » Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:17 pm

HeberC wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:45 pm
Of course, stillwater, but Joseph had the opportunity to proofread what his scribes wrote. Those writings came forth during his lifetime.
Agree. That is much a more accurate way of describing the selection criteria than referencing his handwriting.


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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by Matthew » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:54 am

stillwater wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:39 pm
I recently read a study of the King Follet Sermon, that someone did a forensic analysis of the writing/speech style and that it is mostly from Brigham Young and his style of speech and writing and not that of Joseph's.
I am not sure what relevance this has for the topic of this thread, but regardless I would like to read that study. Joseph's delivery of that sermon is well-attested by multiple firsthand contemporary recorders.

Edited to add: http://www.boap.org/LDS/Parallel/1844/7Apr44.html
I can't imagine anyone concocting a conspiracy theory to explain those sources, hence my interest in reading the study you mentioned.

Here is the link, correction the primary study is D&C 132 and then at the end the Killng Follet Sermon.

https://onewhoiswatching.files.wordpres ... rthe-1.pdf



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by stillwater » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:32 pm

Matthew wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:54 am

Here is the link, correction the primary study is D&C 132 and then at the end the Killng Follet Sermon.

https://onewhoiswatching.files.wordpres ... rthe-1.pdf
Thanks very much for the link. I'm sampling her reasoning on King Follett, and it looks like her methods are pretty flawed there. She is comparing the official version to Brigham Young's sermons to find parallel phrases/concepts, but my cursory review finds that a number of the phrases she tries to pin on Brigham are attested by multiple contemporary witnesses as coming from Joseph. In other words, they don't come from Brigham's purported re-working of the official report, because they are present in the primary sources.


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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by Matthew » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:44 pm

stillwater wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:32 pm
Matthew wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:54 am

Here is the link, correction the primary study is D&C 132 and then at the end the Killng Follet Sermon.

https://onewhoiswatching.files.wordpres ... rthe-1.pdf
Thanks very much for the link. I'm sampling her reasoning on King Follett, and it looks like her methods are pretty flawed there. She is comparing the official version to Brigham Young's sermons to find parallel phrases/concepts, but my cursory review finds that a number of the phrases she tries to pin on Brigham are attested by multiple contemporary witnesses as coming from Joseph. In other words, they don't come from Brigham's purported re-working of the official report, because they are present in the primary sources.
You're welcome, I didn't have it on my iPad, and couldn't remember where I read it... had to retrace my steps and found it today. Now its saved on the iPad.

Yeah. It's fairly good, it is as if there is already a narrative being had and then finding the evidence to support the view, Rather than letting the evidence tell the story.



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by Matthew » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:47 pm

Alos, by the looks of it, there should be more... the page numbers are in the 300's



inho
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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by inho » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:28 am

Matthew wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:47 pm
Alos, by the looks of it, there should be more... the page numbers are in the 300's
It would be interesting to see the whole thesis. I assume that the author is RLDS, since she has also published in the Restoration Studies. I would like to see how neutral is her take on the Disputed Teachings (section in Chapter X). It is also curious that the Table of Contents does not mention the Appendix.



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by ChrisPark » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:26 pm

Matthew wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:18 am
Denver Snuffer is the only person that is currently recognized, others have submitted their own revelations and I believe some have been adopted, maybe, but most that were submitted are or were rejected, anyone could submit what they believe is material worthy to be added and for it to be voted upon - Denver's words were pretty much accepted without dispute from my understanding. While there are others the Lord has sent with a message like Samuel the Lamanite they were not recorded, added, or even received well and have been ignored or altogether rejected. Unless Denver vouches for the person or their words it is likely if even submitted they will be rejected. For any number of reasons.
Hey Matt,

Good to see some interesting discussion here on the forum.

I asked this in another thread, but it is pertinent here, too - have you read the Answer and Covenant?



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by Matthew » Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:22 pm

ChrisPark wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:26 pm
Matthew wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:18 am
Denver Snuffer is the only person that is currently recognized, others have submitted their own revelations and I believe some have been adopted, maybe, but most that were submitted are or were rejected, anyone could submit what they believe is material worthy to be added and for it to be voted upon - Denver's words were pretty much accepted without dispute from my understanding. While there are others the Lord has sent with a message like Samuel the Lamanite they were not recorded, added, or even received well and have been ignored or altogether rejected. Unless Denver vouches for the person or their words it is likely if even submitted they will be rejected. For any number of reasons.
Hey Matt,

Good to see some interesting discussion here on the forum.

I asked this in another thread, but it is pertinent here, too - have you read the Answer and Covenant?
Hey Chris, good to hear from you! How have you been?

Yes I have read the "Answer and Covenant", although I have not read it recently. I read it when it was first released.



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Re: What criteria is used in the Scripture project?

Post by ChrisPark » Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:09 pm

Been good! Yourself?

Glad to hear you've read it. The reason I ask is because in it the Lord gives us new revelations to add to the scriptures (the previous sections 110 and 132), like he did with Samuel, and then declared that, "with these additions, what you have gathered as scriptures are acceptable to me for this time". The Lord was asked by the entire committee on multiple occasions to make known what things needed to be corrected, added, or removed. The only things he suggested were the two revelations that He chose to correct.

I assure you that every single revelation that was sent in was carefully and prayerfully considered. The Lord didn't think it useful for those things to be added at this point, otherwise He would not have stated that, after giving us specific revelation to add to the scriptures, "what you have gathered as scriptures are acceptable to be for this time."

Everyone ought to be receiving important revelations, but for all people to add those things to canon would create scriptures so cumbersome as to render them useless in any missionary work. Those other revelations are being recorded in personal journals and other archive projects, however, and being used to testify of the goodness and mercy of God in condescending to provide them to people. Just not in scriptural canon.

There are those who have mischaracterized all the work done, but the Lord has certainly guided the entire process. I can testify of that at least.

Like what I said in the other chain, there is a huge amount of material that needs to be read in order to correctly understand what is happening. Facebook comments will never give the correct view of things. Reading only a little information can be misleading. It is like making a fuss about a single verse of scripture without considering the surrounding context. The parts are far different than the whole. What if, by viewing a single tree, we determined that the forest is boring because all it is, is a boring tree? If we were to broaden our view, we would find a beautiful meadow, a flowing stream, a mighty mountain, birds, deer, beavers, and many other things that we didn't notice while focusing of the one tree.

Does that make sense? There is a lot of information to catch up on. I'm not saying it will all be pretty or agreeable, but there is far more to the picture than just the little bit of information usually presented by uninformed sources.



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