Guiding principles?

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MichaelB
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Guiding principles?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:42 pm

Did you, or the majority of you, ever decide on guiding principles?

And did Denver ever receive any revelation on the subject?



2bfree
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by 2bfree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:46 pm

Adrian is keeping people abreast of the development...http://www.totheremnant.com/ Log (Jared Livesey) is not on board with it...a bit of back and forth between them



MichaelB
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by MichaelB » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:27 pm

I'd like to read some of the back and forth, but I don't see any comments.

Can you help me?

Also, I'm having difficulty figuring out exactly where the disagreement is between them.

Does Adrian want to add something to what Jared calls the rock of Christ?

If so, what?

Does it have something to do with the role and function of a teacher or prophet within the body of Christ?

I've seen Jared quote what saint John said about those who have the anointing of the HS not needing any man to teach them--and I think he's trying to say that a human teacher really has no role or function to fill for those within the body of Christ, except to be their mouthpiece to those out side.

I've never looked at it that way, but John did say that his readers needed no man to teach them.

I would ask anyone who disagrees with Jared to please explain why he's wrong in believing those in the body don't really need Denver, or Matthew, or anyone else to teach them.

And if that's not really the disagreement between them, I would invite either or both of them (or anyone else) to explain what is.

Thank you.



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SkyBird
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by SkyBird » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:58 pm

As I see it MichaelB, The “world” outside of us is all about understanding SMYBOLISM from Old Testament times (Adam and Eve) to the present day 2017 and beyond. This truth becomes obvious when we look (by observing objectively) the “physical” forms and structures “made with hands” and set up by “hands” (the physical restoration, which objectively points to an “inner” spiritual restoration)! Perhaps these scriptures may help us to see this symbolism.

“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (If the “fulness” of the Godhead is in Christ, it is also in us, as verse 10 declares!) 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” (New Testament | Colossians 2:8 - 12).

“For he is not a Jew, (Mormon, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Gnostic, Atheist or whatever) which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (New Testament | Romans 2:28 - 29)

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Old Testament | Jeremiah 31:33)

“The kingdom of God is within you.” (New Testament | Luke 17:21)

“The mystery of Christ” (New Testament | Ephesians 3:4) (New Testament | Colossians 4:3)
“Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.”

(New Testament | Colossians 1:26 - 29)

The guiding principles are to me, within us, and they come from our own "Tree of Life" (divine nature) personified in our thought, words and deeds...they enable us to "BECOME" one with Father and Christ.

I believe if one is rooted and grounded in the “truth” of “divine nature” nothing can shake you, or shouldn’t; this is what the Christ is about…the “tree of life” and it speaks to my soul through the “fruit of the spirit,” “divine nature,” which translates into a “holy” character sealed in godliness.
I have found the "forms and structures" "made with hands" and passed on by "hands" symbolizes the “secret” or “sacred” nature "BECOMING" ...this is the “mystery” of “BECOMING” the temple of the living God (PERIOD). In other words, the “mystery” is about who you really are from the inside out! No one knows this but you and God and this is the “secret” and “sacred” nature of “BECOMING” divine and holy in our thoughts, words and deeds. Hence, the “guiding principles” experience, REALLY is “secret” and “sacred” (because no one else can experience it, except those who “BECOME…” gods/Gods).

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 6:16)


"for any portion of the human family to be assimilated into their likeness is to be saved" (Lectures on Faith 7:16).

MichaelB
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by MichaelB » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:02 am

2bfree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:46 pm
Adrian is keeping people abreast of the development...http://www.totheremnant.com/ Log (Jared Livesey) is not on board with it...a bit of back and forth between them
I found some comments here, but I don't understand them.

What would voting "yes, no, no" mean?

Surely not "yes" to being a covenant participant, but "no" to being a member of the body of Christ?

And "no" to seeing it as a possibility that you will yet be a member of the body of Christ?

The voting is closed now, and I can't see what you were all voting on, but would someone please tell me what it was all about?

And what "yes, no, no" means, what someone who voted that way would be trying to say, and how he might be excumunicating himself from the body by voting that way?

What body?

And what were the questions, and why might someone voting "yes, no, no," think the questions were set up to find and excuse to excomunicate anyone voting this way?

I apologize for being gone awhile, but I don't have any stable living arangements, and I find all this very confusing.

Could someone please fill me in?



Mujer
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by Mujer » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:38 pm

Hello MichaelB. I noticed no one has responded to you yet. Have you received an answer somewhere else? If not, here are the questions to that particular vote:

1. Have you received the covenant?
2. Here is the document compiled by seven people drawn by lot: http://bit.ly/GuideandStandard - Do you accept this Guide and Standard and support its adoption?
3. Although you may disagree with this being your preferred Guide and Standard, will you agree at this time to adopt the document as presently written, as a guide and standard for those that desire to be the Lord’s people?

The yes, no, no were Jared's answers (and a few others maybe). So the vote responses would be 1. yes, 2. no, 3. no.

And this is how Jared was interpreting the meaning of the questions:
"Are you a covenant participant? yes / no"
"Are you a member of the body? yes / no"
"If you said no, might you become a member of the body? yes / no"

This is all from this post and comment thread on the G&S (Guide and Standard) blog:
http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... 6.html?m=1

The vote resulted in a majority feeling to accepting what is known as the lots version G&S. It appears it is the one that will be published in the restoration edition scriptures.

I am new to this forum, not very active, and came because Jared was able to have an area created to discuss the G&S. I hope life has improved for you. God bless and Merry Christmas.



MichaelB
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by MichaelB » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:21 pm

Thank you.

Do those of you who disagree with the document that was put together by the seven who were chosen by lot believe that God's hand was absent when the lots were drawn?

And haven't you all covenanted to accept this as scripture?
The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
Prov. 4:217.

Taken literally, wouldn't that seem to imply that God chose those men to compile the document in question?

How do those of you who reject these men and the document they produced understand this passage of scripture?

Aren't you rejecting God's revealed will?



Mujer
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by Mujer » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:00 pm

On the surface it would appear to be rejection of God's word and will, wouldn't it? Cannot the devil also influence a drawing by lots process? He can imitate miracles, perform healing, appear as an angel of light, so why not decide a selection by lots? I am not stating that is so, but for me, just because lots were used does not also equate to it being God's will. Not all had been in agreement to use that method. Perhaps if all had been agreed it would have opened up the door fully for God's influence if He was not already heavily involved?

In the example of Nephi and his brothers using lots to determine who must go see Laban, they were all agreed to including to both using lots and including themselves. No one was left out. For this recent experience, not all had agreed to use lots to begin with and therefore were not included in the drawing. Even among those who did agree, not all were included as potential lots. If 100% of the covenant body had agreed and 100% of the names had been included in the drawing, then I would have had greater faith in the process and God's ability to select.

I do find it convenient to accuse anyone who would not accept the lots version as being one who rejects Christ's words and work. The charitable approach would be to allow people to exercise their agency without using shame, guilt, peer pressure, or any other form of compulsion to coerce acquiescence. Now the cry is for anyone disagreeing or dissenting or disputing to be silent, which would allow the rest to feel there is mutual agreement when there really is not.

I believe God's influence has been absent in some ways for a while. Agency has not been honoured. This could have been handled in multiple ways showing respect for the work of others, their voices and hearts, as well as showing greater care for individuals more than care for a group project. It is sad to watch all that has happened. My heart and trust feel broken.



MichaelB
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by MichaelB » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:45 pm

Cannot the devil also influence a drawing by lots process?
Can he?
The lot is cast into the lap, but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
Prov. 4:217.

Taken literally, wouldn't this mean the disposition of lots is wholly up to God?

And does "mutual agreement" necessarily mean "unanimous agreement"?

Is the term "unanimous" used anywhere in the covenant?

I mean, is it explicitly said (anywhere) that the GS would have to be agreed on unanimously?



Mujer
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by Mujer » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:42 pm

Yes, I surely believe the devil can cause much mischief. Maybe God did choose the 14 by lots. If you accept that, peace to you. I don't have to accept that when it has not been confirmed through Spirit to me.

I have always had the impression mutual agreement was about unanimity, but accept others disagree and are okay with less. I am not okay with it, and feel Christ understands my heart even if no one else does. I do not believe we are ever given a command without a way being prepared to accomplish it.

There are a number of things not "explicitly said" in the AC. We were counseled to reason together and learn to respectfully disagree. I had hoped what we could agree upon what would become the G&S.

I take it you are in favour of the lots process and outcome?



MichaelB
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:29 am

I'm just asking questions and trying to figure things out.

You say that you don't have to believe that God chose the 14 by lot unless God's personally reveals that to you--but what about 1 Corinthians 13:7?

If anyone says that God directed this processs, chose these men, guided them, and inspired the outcome of the process, and you have no personal revelation to the contrary, aren't you required to believe them?

I thought that's what Jared was teaching about 1 Corinthians 13:7, and I confess I have difficulty understanding that passage.

How do you understand it?

What does "believeth all things" mean?

If the 14 say they were chosen, guided, and inspired by God (or if Adrian or Denver) say that they were, and you have no personal revelation to the contrary, and you don't believe them, does that mean that you're without charity, and without eternal life abiding in you?

Is that what you think 1 Corinthians 13:7 means?

And if not, what do you think it means?

And to any of you, on any side of this.

Do any of you really KNOW whether the GS is or isn't of God?



Mujer
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by Mujer » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:01 pm

On your last question, I will know the G&S when I read it. I've already been given what it ought to be. I already have said in my heart what I am willing to use as my guide and my standard. I can only share that and then allow others to discover for themselves what God would have them do. How will I know? I just will. I have learned how to recognize the Holy Ghost witnessing truth in my heart and to my mind.

Just because I disagree with how someone else interprets an event or experience, does not mean either of us need be without charity or without eternal life. I can love a person who is evil just as I can love someone who is filled with goodness. Love or charity is the one gift we can give freely to all people. It enlarges everyone and everything it touches. As we understand from 1 John, God Is Love.

As for 1 Corinthians 13:7--how do you interpret "all things?" Does that mean I must believe every word out of every person's mouth? Does that mean I must believe something I know to be a lie when told it? This is where discernment needs to be used, I feel. It is important to be able to figure out when something/someone has produced good fruit and has a heart like Christ's, yes? I believe all things that are of Christ the Lord. If I don't know, for whatever reason, that is when I wait on Him to show me His part. I would ask no more or less from others.



MichaelB
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:09 pm

As for 1 Corinthians 13:7--how do you interpret "all things?" Does that mean I must believe every word out of every person's mouth? Does that mean I must believe something I know to be a lie when told it? This is where discernment needs to be used, I feel. It is important to be able to figure out when something/someone has produced good fruit and has a heart like Christ's, yes? I believe all things that are of Christ the Lord.
Interesting.

That reminds me of something Augustine said regarding the meaning of 1Corinthians 13:7.
"Paul's words in praise of charity do not mean that we should depreciate the charity of any man who does not at once believe everything he hears. The same charity forbids us easily to believe any evil of a brother, and counts it rather as a part of itself not to believe when it hears such evil spoken. The charity which believes all things also believes not every spirit. We are not told that it believes all men: it believes all things, but it's belief is given to God. There can be no doubt that the faith commended by the apostle is that whereby God is believed."
https://remnantofjacobforum.com/viewtop ... aise#p9778

But when I tried sharing his comment on another thread, and suggested his understanding of 1 Corinthians 13:7 might be correct, I was accused of not believing Paul's words.
I know you find that quote interesting, and I understand you find it interesting as a possible way to defeat Paul's words, that charity believeth all things, that you may disbelieve and reject what you do not know is false and simultaneously claim to men to have charity, that you may claim to men to be saved.

In other words, Augustine, a paid minister, said something you like, by giving you a possible way around what Paul said about charity, which you don't like.

Good luck with that.
https://remnantofjacobforum.com/viewtop ... aise#p9778

So I'd like to note that what you say here
I believe all things that are of Christ the Lord
is almost exactly the same thing that Augustine said sixteen hundred years ago
We are not told that it believes all men: it believes all things, but it's belief is given to God. There can be no doubt that the faith commended by the apostle is that whereby God is believed
And I'd like to ask you whether you're trying to find a way around what Paul said about Charity?

And whether you disbelieve and reject Paul's words?



Mujer
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by Mujer » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:03 pm

Goodness. I have no idea what that is all about. Why do people (in general--not specific) always make things so damn complicated? Just love and accept peeps as they are, where they are, for what they are. Choose to send out what you would like to have returned to you. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is really simple. By our works we are known--fruits, hearts, intentions. I've got a long ways yet to go, but it has been through learning my weaknesses that I have come to recognize my complete need for Christ. It's His Love I may share. I am still nothing.

I am sorry you were rebuffed. It demonstrates to me how important it is to return kindness to others, always. Sermon on the Mount for the win!



MichaelB
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Re: Guiding principles?

Post by MichaelB » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:06 pm

2bfree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:46 pm
Adrian is keeping people abreast of the development...http://www.totheremnant.com/ Log (Jared Livesey) is not on board with it...a bit of back and forth between them
Thank you.

What were the results of the new vote they just had?

Did they vote to accept Jared's GS this time?

And if they didn't, could they mutually agree on another GS without his approval?

I was just reading this today, and it seems like he recused himself here.
Therefore, I confess before men, angels, and God, that I did say “yes” when I should have said nothing. I do not know how else to repent of this except to say that to those who have entered into the covenant provided through Denver Snuffer, they should consider me as not being part of that covenant.
http://logscabin.blogspot.com/2017/09/a ... s.html?m=0

Doesn't that mean he's not part of the covenant body, and therefore doesn't have a vote?

Just as others (including Matthew and myself) don't have a vote, because we didn't enter the covenant in September?



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