Miracles

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Matthew
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Miracles

Post by Matthew » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:46 am

When the scriptures speak of miracles what do you typically think of, what comes to mind?

Also, can the devil perform miracles and if so what miracles can the devil not perform?

Besides faith being the prerequisite to all things Christ, including miracles - what else is required for miracles to be performed?



MichaelB
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Re: Miracles

Post by MichaelB » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:04 pm

...can the devil perform miracles...
How Would you define "miracle"?

Would turning sticks into snakes, bringing fire down from heaven, and making a statue seemingly come to life and talk be miracles?

And would there some difference between "miracles," and "great signs and wonders" (Matt. 24:24), and/or "lying wonders" (2Thes. 2:9)?



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Re: Miracles

Post by Matthew » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:44 pm

First, at least answer the question before asking a question. ;)

Umm their are many examples of miracles... the feeding of the multitude with a few fish and loafs of bread is one.

So can the devil replicate some of these miracles, all of the miracles or none? If some, which miracles can he perform which can he not perform. He can appear as an angel of light...

Good questions though. What are your thoughts?
And would there some difference between "miracles," and "great signs and wonders" (Matt. 24:24), and/or "lying wonders" (2Thes. 2:9)?
Yes, I think they are different. But isn’t really the question I asked, not opposed to looking at this but it takes things in a different direction.

The main question, can the devil perform miracles. Yes or no, or maybe... if the answer is no, then that is the end, if yes then the naturally next question is can he perform them all or only some of them. At least that’s my line of thinking. And the reason for my question. I believe yes he can perform many but their are some he cannot perform.



MichaelB
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Re: Miracles

Post by MichaelB » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:06 pm

Matthew wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:44 pm
First, at least answer the question...
When I think of the word "miracle," I think of something that defies a natural scientific explanation.

Is that how you would define "miracle"?

Is there a better definition?



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Re: Miracles

Post by Matthew » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:37 pm

I think that's a good definition...

I also believe it is more than that, but certainly encompasses that. I also equate miracles or fruits as good works, helping the poor, obeying Gods commandments, these are at least the ones that I know that Satan cannot replicate; are their other miracles he cannot perform?

By their fruits he shall know them; do they keep the commandments?

Today, and in most ages it seems to find someone who is kind, willing to help the poor and needy, keeping the commandments is performing miracles and one that science could perhaps define, but certainly some may not understand, at least that's what the scriptures seem to entail as miracles among men, as I have loved you; so shall you love one another and Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Bringing relief to the poor, may from our perspective seem like not much of a miracle, in consideration of the Lords acts, but from their perspective, who ever it is that receives certainly would call it a miracle that you brought aid and relief to them.

Most generally people tend to look for miracles as you put it, one science cannot explain, such as a miraculously healing, and certainly, they happen and for sure it is a miracle. But, Satan also can perform such, and also transform himself nigh unto an angel of light, and also give revelations and so forth. But he cannot and will not keep the commandments, nor cause that one should love one another, would not inspire someone to help the poor and needy, but would instead direct someone to go about what they perceive as a righteous cause such as building up temples all the while they are neglecting the poor among them and justify that they are doing His works as they suppose, when yet they have disobeyed God because they allow the poor among them to still suffer.

But anyways, I think this also entails the dialog that Christ says, there will be many in that day who will say have we not performed miracles in your name, prophesied and so forth, and He will claim they never knew Him. Then by what power were they performed, not His, but the devils Though they believed that they were acting in His behalf healing others and so forth in His name and were not and hence are cast out - and it goes back to my initial thought keeping the commandments are also miracles, helping the needy and poor are miracles. Certainly, those who kept His commandments would then be acquainted with the Lord and would know Him... and those who performed miracles in His name but did not keep the commandments, though they suppose they are performing good works, they are not acquainted with the Lord.



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Re: Miracles

Post by MichaelB » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:49 am

Matthew wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:37 pm
I also equate miracles or fruits as good works, helping the poor, obeying Gods commandments, these are at least the ones that I know that Satan cannot replicate...Today, and in most ages it seems to find someone who is kind, willing to help the poor and needy, keeping the commandments is performing miracles and one that science could perhaps define, but certainly some may not understand, at least that's what the scriptures seem to entail as miracles among men, as I have loved you; so shall you love one another and Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Bringing relief to the poor, may from our perspective seem like not much of a miracle, in consideration of the Lords acts, but from their perspective, who ever it is that receives certainly would call it a miracle that you brought aid and relief to them.

Most generally people tend to look for miracles as you put it, one science cannot explain, such as a miraculously healing, and certainly, they happen and for sure it is a miracle. But, Satan also can perform such, and also transform himself nigh unto an angel of light, and also give revelations and so forth. But he cannot and will not keep the commandments, nor cause that one should love one another, would not inspire someone to help the poor and needy, but would instead direct someone to go about what they perceive as a righteous cause such as building up temples all the while they are neglecting the poor among ...
Thank you Matthew.

Those are interesting thoughts.

What do you think of this?
Franciscan, any member of a Christian religious order founded in the early 13th century by St. Francis of Assisi. The members of the order strive to cultivate the ideals of the order’s founder...It was probably in 1207 that Francis felt the call to a life of preaching, penance, and total poverty. He was soon joined by his first followers, to whom he gave a short and simple rule of life. In 1209 he and 11 of his followers journeyed to Rome, where Francis received approval of his rule from Pope Innocent III. Under this rule, Franciscan friars could own no possessions of any kind, either individually or communally (i.e., as the property of the order as a whole). The friars wandered and preached among the people, helping the poor and the sick. They supported themselves by working and by begging food, but they were forbidden to accept money either as payment for work or as alms. The Franciscans worked at first in Umbria and then in the rest of Italy and abroad. The impact of these street preachers and especially of their founder was immense, so that within 10 years they numbered 5,000. Affiliated with them were the Franciscan nuns, whose order was founded at Assisi in 1212, by St. Clare, who was under the guidance of St. Francis. Clare and her followers were lodged by Francis in the Church of San Damiano, where they lived a severe life of total poverty. They later became known as the Poor Clares or the Order of St. Clare.

During the first years of the Franciscans, the example of Francis provided their real rule of life, but, as the order grew, it became clear that a revised rule was necessary. After preparing a rule in 1221 that was found too strict, Francis, with the help of several legal scholars, unwillingly composed the more restrained final rule in 1223. This rule was approved by Pope Honorius III.

Even before the death of Francis in 1226, conflicts had developed within the order over the observance of the vow of complete poverty. The rapid expansion of the order’s membership had created a need for settled monastic houses, but it was impossible to justify these if Francis’ rule of complete poverty was followed strictly. Three parties gradually appeared: the Zealots, who insisted on a literal observance of the primitive rule of poverty affecting communal as well as personal poverty; the Laxists, who favoured many mitigations; and the Moderates, or the Community, who wanted a legal structure that would permit some form of communal possessions. Something of an equilibrium was reached between these different schools of thought while St. Bonaventure was minister general (1257–74). Sometimes called the second founder of the order, he provided a wise, moderate interpretation of the rule. During this period the friars spread throughout Europe, while missionaries penetrated Syria and Africa. Simultaneously, the friars’ houses in university towns such as Paris and Oxford were transformed into schools of theology that rapidly became among the most celebrated in Europe.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Franciscans

Or this?
Mission

Go Ye Therefore and Teach All Nations

Before his Ascension into heaven, Christ met with his disciples in Galilee and told them, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost...and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world."
The St. Paul Mission Society was founded in 2007 for the purpose of fulfilling this Commission by encouraging the witness, faith, and practice of the Anglican Catholic Church. Its statutes direct it to "provide funding, personnel, and other forms of support for domestic and international missions," and to assist in "the amelioration, relief, and assistance of persons and communities distressed by natural or man-made events or disasters or by adverse social or political situations."
Based in the US, the main focus of the Society is in the developing world. The generosity of those who donate has helped thousands with food, shelter, and clothing in places ranging from Haiti to Pakistan, and from the Philippines to Sudan. As always, the good works of the Society are accompanied by the Good News of Christ.
On the domestic front, the Society helps sponsor activities such as the Anglican Youth Work Camp, a service project where young people from parishes across the United States come together to build and repair homes for people in need. The domestic mission is also charged with assisting in the process of planting and supporting of new parishes in Canada and the US
http://www.anglicancatholic.org/mission ... of-st-paul



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Matthew
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Re: Miracles

Post by Matthew » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:20 pm

Those seem like good things... was there something specific or more to it that you are getting at?



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Re: Miracles

Post by MichaelB » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:32 pm

No.

I was just wondering how you would view them.

Thank you.



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Re: Miracles

Post by Matthew » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:46 pm

I can’t fault a person for experimenting upon the word of God.... just keep experimenting until you get it right. Where is the heart in all these things, this is what matters. Are you acting with hypocrisy or are you sincere in your approach to the things of God. If the first, hypocrisy, then these things will be turned against you. But if sincere and acting without hypocrisy then it will be well with you even if you stumble.



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Re: Miracles

Post by MichaelB » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:51 pm

Thank you.



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