Denver?

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MichaelB
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Denver?

Post by MichaelB » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:13 pm

Has Denver (or the Lord thru Denver) said anything about the GS?

I don't really see anything here.



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Matthew
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Re: Denver?

Post by Matthew » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:55 pm

I wish I could help you there, I don't know - I have not read his blog in months, I did click the link and read his most recent post, didn't know that's where the link was taking me but other than that I have not visited it in a while. I did read the prayer and also the answer to the covenant. Someone sent them both to me.

My wisdom and understanding are poor, I must rely solely on the spirit and power of the Holy Ghost to reveal the truth to me. I cannot ask of other men, without also offending God. I believe if we will wait Him out and weary Him with our asking, then also keep His commandments that He will indeed answer and it may be in a way that we do not immediately recognize ya know?! It may take a while for the answer to grow and develop and then looking back we see it clearly.

Anyways, from what I recall from the A&C, the Lord said that "David" (Denver) was not to be involved in writing it - so does that also include in giving counsel and guidance? I would think so, that it would be completely hand's off for him. I don't think it would be inappropriate for him to give guidance on how to reconcile with one another's differences, and if he has any role then that is likely the full measure of it - even that may be too much.

The bigger picture here with the G&S is that this was given to try them, to see if they could learn to be disagreeable, to love one another despite being in opposition to one another - but seeing as they're failing unless they humble themselves it will be turned upon them whatever they produce and they shall be judged by it. But for the sake of the humble among them, who are earnestly seeking the Lord He shall deliver them but they shall be purified first as by fire. And they will be His people and they His children.



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Matthew
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Re: Denver?

Post by Matthew » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:55 pm

If it were not crickets here.... you might be able to get a better answer, but it seems like most prefer to lurk than to engage.



Mujer
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Re: Denver?

Post by Mujer » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:13 pm

MichaelB, you might find it helpful to review some posts by the scripture committee. I'm on my phone and not very tech savvy, so I'll just share the links.

http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... s.html?m=0

http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... s.html?m=0

In addition to what Matthew has shared, maybe they will help. It is my understanding that Denver meets at times with the members of the scripture committee, but he is hands off the G&S; as he ought to be. We want to avoid repeating what happened before when Joseph Smith was relied upon too much by the early saints. The struggle is real, however.



MichaelB
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Re: Denver?

Post by MichaelB » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:30 am

Thank you Mujer.

I found these posts (from Jared and Blair) enlightening.
LogDecember 1, 2017 at 6:08 AM
To Whom It May Concern:

I do not acknowledge Denver Snuffer to be "a true messenger," whatever that phrase even means.
While I believe Denver Snuffer, I do not and will not serve as his prophet and therefore include none of his words in the G&S, without regard to whether the words Denver Snuffer speaks could possibly be from Christ or not. Denver Snuffer may speak for himself to whomsoever he will. Men need not confess Denver Snuffer, or "acknowledge" him, to be "a true messenger," whatever that phrase even means, nor even enter the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer, to be saved.

If men trust in Denver Snuffer to bring to them the word of the Lord instead of keeping the commandments of the Lord contained in the Sermon with diligence and obtaining his word for themselves, they are cursed of the Lord and remain telestial. Teaching men to trust in Denver Snuffer curses them, harms them, and misinforms them.

If we, unlike those who came before us, intend to honor the Lord's requirements - and to honor means, in this context, to obey - then you may cease from campaigning for your preferred G&S. This is a circumstance where the Lord has made it impossible for the majority to "win" so long as a minority exists, if all parties intend to honor the Lord's requirement.

I have formally given notice to one and all that I dissent from every G&S proposal save it be one - or, if you like, I dispute the adoption of any G&S save one. I have also given you the reasons, publicly, in prior writings, found here: http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... hrist.html . Attempts at ostracizing me will not succeed in driving me off, and you lack the power to excommunicate dissenters in order to attain mutual agreement.

If you intend to honor the Lord's requirement, you will humble yourselves and come and discuss as equals, openly and publicly. I have procured a neutral forum for this purpose here: viewforum.php?f=37

Your servant,
Jared Livesey
http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... s.html?m=0

BlairDecember 4, 2017 at 11:43 AM
Log,
Sorry for the delay in responding to your questions. Weekends don't work out for me too well for continuing the discussion.

I believe that idolatry is believing saving power exists in anyone but Christ.

I agree that putting trust in the arm of flesh results in damnation.

The issue is determining exactly what this trust is and how we receive information from the Lord. Of course, the preferable way to get revelation and instruction is directly from the Lord. The Lord, however recognizes that this does not happen all that often. I believe He would prefer that method. The fact that we have any scriptures at all shows that He has other methods, which are designed to bring people unto Him, and He can give to them directly.

If I trust that the Book of Mormon is the word of God, does that mean that I am engaging in idolatry? It was written by men, after all. If I believe any of the revelations of Joseph Smith, am I putting trust in the arm of flesh? Perhaps someone could view it that way, but I don't.

Likewise with the G&S produced by the Lots group. Much of it involves quotations from Denver. If I believe that they are correct, does that mean that I am engaging in idolatry? You seem to think so, but I do not agree. I believe that they are the words that the Lord has sent to us in this day through one of His servants. They do not direct me to put faith in the servant, but in the Lord. They do not lead me to think or believe that Denver has any salvific power. They point me to Christ.
http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... s.html?m=0
BlairDecember 4, 2017 at 1:57 PM
For some reason my comment got posted under the main thread, and not here, so here it is, just in case you didn't see it:

Log, I gave you an exact answer in the comment above: "I agree that putting trust in the arm of flesh results in damnation."

I have read the blog posts you listed. In fact, I read most of them previously. I am well aware of what you have commented and what your position on the guide and standard is.

Now, since I have answered your direct question, please answer mine (answers to which I have not found in your writings): Since the scriptures that the G&S document will be published in (as an appendix, not as scripture) also include revelations received through Denver, are you opposed to the restoration edition of the scriptures? How do you reconcile the fact that you think the covenant offered through Denver is valid, but you don't believe that Denver's other statements are valid enough to be included in a statement that is not considered to be scripture?


I agree that we can go off the rails by putting our trust in Denver. But you seem to believe that nothing from Denver can be included, because that would be putting trust in man. By that same logic, no scripture can be accepted at all, unless it is given to you directly by the Lord.

Once again, I am not trying to contend, but understand. I find it confusing that you consider the covenant to be binding, but do not accept anything else given through Denver. I have read your statements, but disagree. I have prayed on the subject, and still remain unpersuaded that your proposal is correct. What would you have me do? Must I agree with you no matter what in order for the G&S to go forward?
http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... s.html?m=0
LogDecember 4, 2017 at 2:24 PM
Blair, I have to ask, again, for the third time: do you agree that those who trust in men are cursed of the Lord?

Because you have twice not answered this question, but have substituted "putting trust in the arm of flesh."

Please answer this exact question directly without substitutions, or else please tell me you intend to not answer the question I am asking.


Jared Livesey
http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... s.html?m=0
BlairDecember 4, 2017 at 2:45 PM
Jared, I have tried to answer your question twice. If you didn't understand my terminology, it would have helped if you asked, or were more specific. I view putting trust in the arm of flesh to be the same thing as putting trust in men. I didn't realize that you needed me to use the same terminology as you in order to have a discussion.
http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... s.html?m=0



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