Detecting Decption

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Matthew
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Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:47 pm

We have the scriptures in addition to the spirit, the word of God, Lehi/Nephi saw this in a vision, the WORD is to be our guide, those who hold to the rod were able to find their way through the darkness. They did start off first being led off into the darkness by an unknown being until they cried out for help. It seems the first step is to ask or cry out for deliverance, a dark and dreary place suggests to me no knowledge of God or a place at least void of knowledge of the things of God as they found themselves in initially.

When we wrest the scriptures, we let go of that sure word of God. Without His word we open our selves up to strange teachings, doctrines, that are rife with counterfeits to the scriptures.

Counterfeit, I don't think we pay enough attention to what this word means, something that is counterfeit so closely matches and resembles an object or in this case the truth, that it is barely discernible as being fake, not the real McCoy, it is passed off as being genuine by most people unless you have a trained eye, the ability to detect the counterfeit and or the deception is difficult, it is not easily discernible. If it is an obvious untruth, that is not a counterfeit, if it is contrasted it stands out, those are easy to spot, it is when something so closely resembles the truth, it is almost as if it were true and by all accounts it is true until detected otherwise.

Are people feigning revelation, or being deceived by false, lying, and unclean spirits? I believe some are. But when we hold them or what they say or teach against the light (scriptures) we can see the truth of it for ourselves.

God also gives us what we want, if we believe something that is true, but isn't and we refuse to accept the answer. He will give us what we want even if it causes us to stumble. Read Jacob 4:14. Are you stumbling and believing a counterfeit, if you know, you obviously change the path and drop the belief, hopefully, but what if you do not know, how can you detect it - is asking, crying out even if you are not sure the key to freeing yourself?

The spirit and the scriptures combined I know will help us, those on the path, who are holding to the rod, who have the word of God, still fell away, became deceived, swallowed up the mist of darkness with sin, pride seems to be one of those major things numeral uno that brings the house of cards down, being ashamed of God or of His word, maybe that is another for some, or shame in themselves, rather than repent and admit the truth they seek to hide it.

I have been deceived, last year, I was told I was done, I was saved, I had seen the Father and been in His presence and that I didn't have to do anything else - it truly felt good, I thought wow, I can relax. I struggled with this persistent voice and thought, I almost felt at one point overcome by it, accepting it as a truth, when reading the scriptures and I can't recall the words I read, but it stirred up my soul and I knew the thoughts and impressions I was receiving were from a lying and unclean spirit. It stirred me up to repentance for thinking that I could coast the rest of my life, and that I did not have more work to do, I suppose the devil doesn't want me sharing my own experiences and helping others - it is something that we must constantly stand on guard against. I recalled Denver's words too as this point, rushing to my mind, paraphrasing from memory that while we are still yet in the flesh we are liable to fall.

I have had a spirit and a tabernacled being appear to me as a being of light and glory, and by His grace was able to detect them and they could no longer keep up their disguise as a being of light and I saw them for what and who they were.

People seem pretty impatient and want immediate signs to follow, so they're willing to believe just about anything that could be a sign. Why is it that people rather believe a quick lie, counterfeit, rather than waiting it out for the slow but genuine truth?!

What are some things that have helped you to guard against deception, against counterfeits?

What do the scriptures teach, do they teach us to guard ourselves against deception, if so what do they have to say about it?

The old cunning one, is very deceitful, so deceitful that if it were possible even the very elect will be deceived.

This is serious folks, what are your thoughts?



dewajack
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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by dewajack » Mon Aug 29, 2016 9:50 pm

This is a good topic to be discussing.

A few of things that stand out to me are:

1-Fear - It's important to be cautious and seek heaven's help every step of the way, and also to realize that we will make foolish mistakes on the journey, because sometimes that's the only way to learn. However, we can't let fear control us, nor keep us from moving toward heaven.

2 - Cry out to Father for help and complete dependence - I need to do this more often.

3 - Keep the commandments - No brainer

4- Don't listen to that little voice that tells you how great you are, that you have inside information, or are privy to higher knowledge, or that you have some wonderful calling, nor put stock in anyone else trying to feed you that nonsense.

5 - Receive charity



Bryan LJ
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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Bryan LJ » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:54 pm

There are two paths. One focuses on love/charity/service to God and fellowman. The other focuses on service to self.

Are we increasing in love/charity day to day?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:00 pm

Not to take away from anything anyone else says or has said, but I find this interesting.

Brother Joseph Smith, Jr. said: That he intended to do his duty before the Lord and hoped that the brethren would be patient as they had a considerable distance (to go). Also said that the promise of God was that the greatest blessings which God had to bestow should be given to those who contributed to the support of his family while he was translating the fulness of the scriptures. Until we have perfect love we are liable to fall and when we have a testimony that our names are sealed in the Lamb's book of life we have perfect love and then it is impossible for false Christs to deceive us; also said, that the Lord held the Church bound to provide for families of the absent Elders while proclaiming the gospel; further, that God had often sealed up the heavens because of covetousness in the Church. The Lord would cut short his work in righteousness and except the Church receive the fulness of the scriptures that they would yet fail.5 --FWR, p. 16. (Oct. 25, 1831.)


And...

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by bmidget » Tue Aug 30, 2016 2:06 am

Unfortunately, I am one who is often deceived, and for me this is why:

I prefer create a “truth” in my head and then look for evidence to confirm that “truth” to myself.

Yup, it’s a sure-fire way to confuse the hell out of myself for extended periods of time. I also see no end to this ass-backwards thought process I have achieved.

This has put me in a detrimental scenario with those around me. I have voiced too many of these false “truths” that I have clung onto like a fool, and now it is impossible for many around me to be able to trust anything I have to say as even worth considering.

It is likely that I have been deceived in every way — that my understanding of history is wrong in many (most?) instances. It is likely my understanding of my current state and ideas is wrong in many or most instances, too.

Also I think much of my problem is that I often do not want a father to teach me, but I really want a magic talisman to control aspects of my life. Whenever I have sought to teach God how to do something or how something should be then I have opened myself to be deceived. And this happens a lot to me.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Lance » Tue Aug 30, 2016 11:42 am

Matthew wrote:Are people feigning revelation, or being deceived by false, lying, and unclean spirits? I believe some are. But when we hold them or what they say or teach against the light (scriptures) we can see the truth of it for ourselves.


When the teachings of the doctrinal innovators are measured against the scriptures, it should be relatively obvious what is of God.

I will admit that upon being introduced to this community (broadly speaking) of believers I did not sufficiently have my guard up against deceivers and imposters. It seems like this movement is infested with them. Since I was an earnest and sincere believer, why would it even cross my mind that others who (apparently) shared the same interests would be any different? Hard lessons had to be learned.

One of the points that dewajack referenced is also something I have also come to recognize as deception: I will reject any voice that appeals to vanity or pride, or teaches that its adherents are superior, special, royal, inner circle, etc.

Another point: Exercise extreme caution in receiving the teachings of any teacher who testifies of an audience with the Lord, yet refuses to be identified. I fail to see how someone can be a witness of the Lord's resurrection and be asked by the Lord to publicly share that witness, but then maintain the cloak of anonymity.

Run from anyone who seeks a following, and especially anyone who encourages the belief that they are called to be "the one mighty and strong." That should be an obvious deception to everyone, yet still suckers are born every minute.

Run from anyone whose teachings seek to undermine Christ's atonement, such as claims I have heard by some people that they have ascended beyond the atonement.

There may be some great, towering lights who do not need to develop skills at problem solving and who are ready to found Zion today. If so, they should do so. Let us all stand back and admire them. Surely they have much to show the world. Many of these self-proclaiming great ones never sacrifice their name by stepping forward and letting themselves be identified, their reputation attacked, their motives questioned, and their church membership threatened or lost. As the Lectures on Faith inform us, without sacrifice we have no faith, for faith comes by sacrifice and in no other way. Read the Lectures on Faith.


There will be imposters. They will be exposed so they can repent, or they will be sent away. There will be those who are cruel, proud and unkind. They need the opportunity to overcome their character flaws. If they refuse to reform, eventually they will stop associating with us and we with them. Malignant hearts are not easily concealed. Ambition and pride destroy, not build, communities.

I have had high hopes in the past for some seekers I have met. People who have made strong, favorable impressions, at first. A few years later, some of these people I had high regard for prove themselves proud, controlling, dictatorial and unworthy.

Similarly, I have seen some who did not stand out at first but who, over time, have proven themselves godly, self-sacrificing and brave. Time and experience change people. Even now some who are “great” stand in peril before God and may fall. Those who exalt themselves have never been candidates for Zion. Gradually, by degrees, we will see maturity, repentance, kindness and even charity become part of these communities.


http://denversnuffer.com/?s=%22stand+in+peril%22



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:35 pm

Is anonymity a sure discriminator of false from true?

Mosiah 12:1
1 And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying—Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words; they have repented not of their evil doings; therefore, I will visit them in my anger, yea, in my fierce anger will I visit them in their iniquities and abominations.


John 7
10 ¶But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Tue Aug 30, 2016 12:44 pm

It's interesting; for the vast majority of external rules proposed to divide true from false, there seems to be a counterexample in the scriptures.

Even so, I have a three-pronged external test that I tentatively apply to decide who's worth listening to.

Do they (1) keep and (2) teach the commandments? Are they (3) trying to win arguments and/or establish mastery?

I trust 1 and 2 are self-explanatory. #3 - this is the tricky one, for as we are, so do we judge. Yet the spirit of contention (#3, arguing to win, seeking mastery, seeking dominance, etc.) is one of the keys Jesus gave us to discern by; the other being this: all things whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, do ye even so unto them, for this is the law and the prophets. (Hence #1 and #2, made explicit by Alma.)

The true internal test, in the end, however, is "do I hear the glory of the voice of the Lord in their words?" That one cannot be taught, but must be experienced, through complete repentance and calling upon the Lord in mighty prayer, even until he receives you.

Doctrine and Covenants 84:52-53
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Lance » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:14 pm

log wrote:Is anonymity a sure discriminator of false from true?

Mosiah 12:1
1 And it came to pass that after the space of two years that Abinadi came among them in disguise, that they knew him not, and began to prophesy among them, saying: Thus has the Lord commanded me, saying—Abinadi, go and prophesy unto this my people, for they have hardened their hearts against my words; they have repented not of their evil doings; therefore, I will visit them in my anger, yea, in my fierce anger will I visit them in their iniquities and abominations.


John 7
10 ¶But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

11 Then the Jews sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he?

12 And there was much murmuring among the people concerning him: for some said, He is a good man: others said, Nay; but he deceiveth the people.

13 Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.


No, anonymity is not a sure discriminator of false from true. I wasn't trying to make that argument in my post. Just throwing out my 2 cents in response to the OP, even though it's not a sure measuring stick by any means.

The two scripture references you cited both involved messengers - Abinadi and the Lord - who were put to death for their teachings. I don't think the anonymous prophets of the internet make good comparisons with them. Abinadi may have been in disguise for a time, but he still carried the burden of placing himself in danger and ultimately into the hands of the wicked king. I don't know exactly why, but Abinadi's disguise may have been simply been used to gain access into the city to preach because he had already been cast out before. Certainly it was not an attempt to avoid the consequences of the message he was commanded to share. Abinadi did not anonymously post a manifesto on the King's palace door and then run off. I believe - and I am open to be corrected - that a true messenger must bear the burden of the message. In the case of someone who has been commanded to testify that he/she has been in the presence of God, where is the burden associated with posting an anonymous message on the internet? Maybe someday the anonymous prophets will be required to become identifiable witnesses, but it just isn't their time yet. Still, from what I have observed so far, my skepticism is justified and hence my recommendation to exercise extreme caution.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Tue Aug 30, 2016 4:32 pm

For me, the first line of defense is keeping the commandments, when we are not we open ourselves up to being deceived, the second line of defense is feasting upon and treasuring the words of Christ, to me this suggests more than reading the scriptures but also pondering the words, praying on the words, studying them out in your mind, sifting through them until His words become part of your soul and lastly, filling yourself with the pure love of Christ, this is done in my experience by sacrifice and by serving others..charity.... these elements combined together to give one the armor, strength, power if you will, to detect deception and to stand against it. When these things are done, He writes His laws upon your inward parts, this says to me, that instead of being obedient because it is a commandment you are obedient because it is the natural thing for you to do, you lose the desire for wickedness and delight in the things of God, you are changed and become as He is.

I feel for you bmidget, you say that you are deceived often, at least you are recognizing you are allowing yourself to be deceived and you know how you are opening up yourself to be deceived, now the trick is to train yourself to open up to God, and surrender to His will instead of creating truth, let Him teach you. How many are being deceived and know it not?

All of you make good points. What are some other counterfeits out there, other ways people are being deceived? We surely must know some or someone who is going around lying, and deceiving others, should not these things be brought into the light for a closer examination and can we do that without being condemning, where do you draw the line, and expect to reason and council together without also becoming the accuser.

Joseph says we should expose the darkness, if we know it.
12 For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it—

13 Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven—

14 These should then be attended to with great earnestness.

D&C 123


Are we doing our fellow (wo)man a disservice by not exposing darkness when it is known, especially among those of us who are like minded in some way who are at least searching for greater light and knowledge, it seems darkness has taken hold, does not darkness die in the light of exposure? Then should we not attend to these things with great earnestness?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:58 pm

Well, that's certainly how the Church justifies the existence of the Strengthening Church Members Committee...
Last edited by log on Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:17 pm

Plus I'm not sure how effective it is. I thought fer shore that after your expose of Terral Blackstar, we'd undoubtedly seen the last of the Updates.

Guess not.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by SkyBird » Tue Aug 30, 2016 8:47 pm

log wrote:Plus I'm not sure how effective it is. I thought fer shore that after your expose of Terral Blackstar, we'd undoubtedly seen the last of the Updates.

Guess not.


Absolutly not... as I have said I like the "research" Terral has put into the Blackstar and 911... he is a fellow brother, part of the family of Adam... didn't say he was perfect... but he has that potential! As we all do!

My way of detecting deception is through the attributes, character and perfections of godliness! This is my favorite scripture that shows this and its opposites. If we don't understand the "whole picture" then we may be deceived... my cure for deception is this scripture! This is my foundation for discerning the truth!


This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.


(New Testament | Galatians 5:16 - 26)


"for any portion of the human family to be assimilated into their likeness is to be saved" (Lectures on Faith 7:16).

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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:47 am

log wrote:Well, that's certainly how the Church justifies the existence of the Strengthening Church Members Committee...


log wrote:Plus I'm not sure how effective it is. I thought fer shore that after your expose of Terral Blackstar, we'd undoubtedly seen the last of the Updates.

Guess not.


Sure that is maybe an extreme, all I am suggesting is that if by chance someone says, they are Gods right hand man, have sealing keys, come get sealed and some priesthood from me, it ought to be exposed. Not necessarily the persons name, maybe, and surely if you heard from your cousins', moms friend, whose uncle once heard part of a conversation between two others that so and so made the claim, ought to not even be entertained.

Rumors are destructive, if you have first hand knowledge, not hearsay, then I think a warning call of what at least is being taught, and teaching the correct principle in its place ought to be an endeavor. Teach correct principles, expose the darkness by bringing it into the light, if it be right or righteous it will endure the scrutiny of a close examination of what is being taught, teach correct principles and let each one stand for themselves in other words. I believe this is why the church safe guards its Handbook of Instructions 1, so well, it will not endure the light of exposure. Nor all their other activities that are hid from the lay members of the church, but are known in the corporate world, government etc...

There is spiritual deception taking place both from beyond the veil crossing over from lying and deceiving spirits and also by those who have given themselves up to being mislead by others and or by these lying spirits and are going around preaching falsehoods. If you have something and it is from the Lord, you do not hide it under a bushel, right?! But instead you set it out upon a hill for all to see, that they may give glory unto the Father which is in heaven. Proclaim it boldly - don't be a coward like I was. If you hide it, conceal it, except from a few trusted close friends or associates in all likelihood, not in every circumstances, it is being hidden so that it is not seen for what it is.

Joseph instructions were that we ought to, though what qualifies anyone of us to expose the darkness, if you have knowledge of wrong doing, and you say well, its not my job to expose it, you bring yourself under its power, you become culpable and a party to the deception, it becometh everyman who has been warned, to warn his neighbor, if you do not - then you are found upholding secret combinations which seek to destroy the soul, and over throw the work of the Lord. At least from where I am sitting.

While I understand we should be as wise as a serpent (Christ) and harmless as a dove (Holy Ghost) when facing our enemies, with one another, we ought not let these things take hold among us, and cut it off quickly, or else we suffer it to overcome us.

I openly admitted to being deceived last year, while the voice did not build me up, it sought to make me content, comfortable and complacent, and why did it take hold for a short time, because I was not keeping His commandment to me, the Lord the year before told me to bear witness of Him at church on a Fast and Testimony meeting, that I have seen Him, conversed with Him and that I know that He lives and I told Him "no" then went and tried, but failed, because I did not have courage, I feared man more. It took nearly two years before that opportunity was given to me again. I shared that experiences on my blog in a post titled: "Living According to Your Faith", He spoke those words to me, are you living according to your faith and I told him no Lord I am not, but I will and resolved within myself to overcome this darkness that I had let get power over me. Fear of man.

dewajack wrote: 4- Don't listen to that little voice that tells you how great you are, that you have inside information, or are privy to higher knowledge, or that you have some wonderful calling, nor put stock in anyone else trying to feed you that nonsense.

What dewajack shared here is a key, though while the voice didn't build me up it attacked me differently, but still with pride. Not as something great, but as in I don't have to do anything, I am saved, I can relax now, I have done well and endured until the end. Yes, I was foolish and am still a fool. It was not long lasting, it did not have hold upon me very long, because the words of Christ came to my rescue. Since my experience coming unto the Father and in His presence I have suffered greater contradictions of the mind, and trials, I have seen Satan use tactics for the lack of a better word than I have before ever witnessed or experienced, his methods changed. The jaws of hell upon up wide after you and Satan manifests himself in different ways.

Detecting deception, from whatever source, is in my mind an important endeavor. It keeps people from coming to a knowledge of the truth. It stops spiritual progression. It destroys.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Torquemada » Wed Aug 31, 2016 10:38 am

Matthew wrote:We have the scriptures in addition to the spirit, the word of God, Lehi/Nephi saw this in a vision, the WORD is to be our guide, those who hold to the rod were able to find their way through the darkness. They did start off first being led off into the darkness by an unknown being until they cried out for help. It seems the first step is to ask or cry out for deliverance, a dark and dreary place suggests to me no knowledge of God or a place at least void of knowledge of the things of God as they found themselves in initially.

When we wrest the scriptures, we let go of that sure word of God. Without His word we open our selves up to strange teachings, doctrines, that are rife with counterfeits to the scriptures.

Counterfeit, I don't think we pay enough attention to what this word means, something that is counterfeit so closely matches and resembles an object or in this case the truth, that it is barely discernible as being fake, not the real McCoy, it is passed off as being genuine by most people unless you have a trained eye, the ability to detect the counterfeit and or the deception is difficult, it is not easily discernible. If it is an obvious untruth, that is not a counterfeit, if it is contrasted it stands out, those are easy to spot, it is when something so closely resembles the truth, it is almost as if it were true and by all accounts it is true until detected otherwise.

Are people feigning revelation, or being deceived by false, lying, and unclean spirits? I believe some are. But when we hold them or what they say or teach against the light (scriptures) we can see the truth of it for ourselves.

God also gives us what we want, if we believe something that is true, but isn't and we refuse to accept the answer. He will give us what we want even if it causes us to stumble. Read Jacob 4:14. Are you stumbling and believing a counterfeit, if you know, you obviously change the path and drop the belief, hopefully, but what if you do not know, how can you detect it - is asking, crying out even if you are not sure the key to freeing yourself?

The spirit and the scriptures combined I know will help us, those on the path, who are holding to the rod, who have the word of God, still fell away, became deceived, swallowed up the mist of darkness with sin, pride seems to be one of those major things numeral uno that brings the house of cards down, being ashamed of God or of His word, maybe that is another for some, or shame in themselves, rather than repent and admit the truth they seek to hide it.

I have been deceived, last year, I was told I was done, I was saved, I had seen the Father and been in His presence and that I didn't have to do anything else - it truly felt good, I thought wow, I can relax. I struggled with this persistent voice and thought, I almost felt at one point overcome by it, accepting it as a truth, when reading the scriptures and I can't recall the words I read, but it stirred up my soul and I knew the thoughts and impressions I was receiving were from a lying and unclean spirit. It stirred me up to repentance for thinking that I could coast the rest of my life, and that I did not have more work to do, I suppose the devil doesn't want me sharing my own experiences and helping others - it is something that we must constantly stand on guard against. I recalled Denver's words too as this point, rushing to my mind, paraphrasing from memory that while we are still yet in the flesh we are liable to fall.

I have had a spirit and a tabernacled being appear to me as a being of light and glory, and by His grace was able to detect them and they could no longer keep up their disguise as a being of light and I saw them for what and who they were.

People seem pretty impatient and want immediate signs to follow, so they're willing to believe just about anything that could be a sign. Why is it that people rather believe a quick lie, counterfeit, rather than waiting it out for the slow but genuine truth?!

What are some things that have helped you to guard against deception, against counterfeits?

What do the scriptures teach, do they teach us to guard ourselves against deception, if so what do they have to say about it?

The old cunning one, is very deceitful, so deceitful that if it were possible even the very elect will be deceived.

This is serious folks, what are your thoughts?


If we are not repenting and loving ourselves and God, our progress has stopped. I believe the word is called damned in the Bible.

I have also been deceived on numerous occasions and when I make the discovery I throw it away and continue my search and repenting.

I watched a few Teal Swan videos and thought she's has some good stuff and she does, but she also have some very damaging doctrines that have led people to commit suicide. She is lying about her SRA as a child and teen and has set herself up as a spiritual guru with many followers. I also believe she is plagiarizing all over the place in her videos. She didn't deceive me very long, but I can see how somebody with little foundation could be ruined by her. I don't think it wise to listen to marital advice from somebody married 4 times and still in her late 20s ;) Her "shadow work" method of clearing our negative feelings really sucks IMHO.


The church does not have all the truth, otherwise why would we be admonished to seek further light and knowledge?

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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:24 pm

Torquemada wrote:If we are not repenting and loving ourselves and God, our progress has stopped. I believe the word is called damned in the Bible.

I have also been deceived on numerous occasions and when I make the discovery I throw it away and continue my search and repenting.

I watched a few Teal Swan videos and thought she's has some good stuff and she does, but she also have some very damaging doctrines that have led people to commit suicide. She is lying about her SRA as a child and teen and has set herself up as a spiritual guru with many followers. I also believe she is plagiarizing all over the place in her videos. She didn't deceive me very long, but I can see how somebody with little foundation could be ruined by her. I don't think it wise to listen to marital advice from somebody married 4 times and still in her late 20s ;) Her "shadow work" method of clearing our negative feelings really sucks IMHO.


I have never heard of Teal Swan, I'll take your word for it, that her stuff isn't good. Thanks for sharing what you have, I agree, the term is damned. Not a fun feeling to be caught up in the turmoil and digging yourself out from under it.

How is that you came aware that you were being deceived, what triggered it and awakened you to that situation you found yourself in?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:28 pm

I think if you can't explain why the teaching / teacher is false, it doesn't do any good to denounce it, since in that event you end up pitting one "authoritative" claim against another with just as little evidence and reason for people to accept it. This would seem to me to encourage side-taking and loyalty as the measure of acceptability, rather than truth. We produce sychophants rather than students and disciples of Christ in that event.

The number of wrong answers may literally be infinite, but the number of right answers is few, perhaps only one (up to isomorphism [ie, essentially changing the names / labels of things]). If one took it upon oneself to denounce all that is, or who are, false, one might be so busy that one has no time to publish the truth, the positive program of the gospel.



Meili

Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Meili » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:05 am

I've been following this thread but haven't had a chance to post yet. I have just come out of a period of a few years in which I battled a force which convinced me I was never wrong. I've learned a lot from that experience. I'd like to try and share the things I learned, if I can put them together coherently.

Many of my friends were concerned for me and tried to convince me I was wrong. I told them that the Lord knew whether or not I was deceived and that if he didn't see fit to correct me, then there must be a good reason for it. I trusted him to break through any deception I might be entrenched in. I didn't disregard my friends' advice, I simply insisted that they speak through the Spirit if they expected me to accept what they were saying as true. I continued to petition the Lord and ask for his guidance.

I still believe that was the correct approach for me at the time. The Lord was able to break through the deception in his own time. He did inspire some to speak to me through the Spirit at the right moments. I believe I am much wiser for the whole experience and have no regrets, even though now I feel I was seriously deceived during that time. I don't believe trusting in the Lord is ever a foolish idea, particularly when it's a choice between trusting him or mortal men.

I sometimes engaged in discussions of how to identify deception and found very little good advice in that area. Those I was discussing with could not adequately explain how their methods protected thoroughly against deception. It was not unusual to see people claim there was no sure fire way. That is what I believed for some time. My only hope was trust in Jesus Christ. I now believe I have some additional solid advice on the matter.

The Scriptures aren't Enough

I've heard many people claim that relying on the scriptures can protect you from deception. I disagree. Joseph said this:
. . . The teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.

Any member of this forum ought to understand exactly what Joseph was talking about. You could say, the members of this forum understand the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence settling most questions by an appeal to the scriptures. This problem is not settled even by the inclusion of the Book of Mormon in the scriptural cannon. There are still plenty of different interpretations of scripture available. To further muddy the waters, we have the promise of additional scripture. We are told clearly that there is truth available outside the current scriptures. While the scriptures are certainly a vital source in the search for truth, no one ought to claim that they can settle a question by the scriptures.

Beware of Absolutes

One of the most common aspects of deception is the concept of a "box" or a "stake." These are lies accepted as absolute truths and can therefore foster deception. The favorite among most of us is "the prophet can't lead you astray" because we generally accept that as a lie. Others are "God would never say/do . . ." and "Anyone who believes/says/does . . . is wrong/right." Believing a false absolute leads to a whole plethora of other falsehoods.

There are absolutes which can and should be adhered to and which can lead you to accept truth. Trust in the Lord Jesus Christ is one I accept as true. Honoring free agency is another. As you identify deception and recognize truth in your life, you will also begin to recognize these true absolutes that run through all truth. You will naturally make them the guiding rules in your life.

Everyone is Deceived

The single most important aspect of recognizing deception is accepting that you have been deceived. The scriptures proclaim:
All we, like sheep, have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquities of us all.

If you live in this mortal world, you've most likely been deceived. Even those with spiritual gifts who converse with Jesus on a regular basis have discovered that they were deceived about many things. This is important to understand for two reasons:

1. You can trust that virtually everyone has the capacity to deceive you, intentionally or not.

2. You can safely assume that you are most likely deceived about many things.

This truth is liberating because it allows you to focus on the one person who you have power to help identify and clear out any deception they have: yourself. If you can accept that you most likely have been deceived about enough things to keep you busy for years identifying all the deception then you can forget about all the other people who have been deceived and work on yourself. One of the adversary's most prevalent lies is the idea that you have the responsibility to save others from their deception. Guess what, you don't. At least not while you are under the delusion that you are not deceived. Regardless of whether you feel the Lord has called you to testify to others of the truth, you still have no responsibility to ensure they aren't deceived. You can only testify and then it is vital that you leave your intended audience in the hands of the Lord. If you can't do that, you're very likely in a state of damnation.

It's vital to recognize that the natural man within you will fight tooth and nail to convince you that you aren't deceived about anything significant. You will have to find ways to bypass these whisperings of the devil and identify the places where you are wrong. For me, I learned to watch my children and consider their errant behavior as a testimony of my own errant behavior, since I was their primary role model. I've learned to scrutinize the judgments I make of others and find the ways they reflect my own nature. I've learned to accept the world around me as a testimony of truth to me. I've learned to be highly suspicious any time I'm so damn sure I'm right about something that I feel justified in acting like an You're silly!. I've become like a suspicious parent of myself, convinced that my natural man is full of mischief and ever vigilant of possible misbehavior. And then I seek to repent, repent, and repent some more because again it's always a fight with my overly healthy ego to convince myself I need a change.

All this has kept me so busy lately that I hardly have time to think about all the ways others are deceived, as I used to. I simply don't have time to pick apart other people's problems anymore. When I do find myself doing so, I get suspicious of that natural man again and start applying everything to myself. It's not as satisfying an endeavor as when I was so sure I was always right but it is productive.

This principle is the most vital to identifying deception that I've nearly beaten it to death. Even so, I repeat. You cannot fix the deception in anyone but yourself. If you are trying, you are deceived about that and need to repent. There is more than enough work on your own self. Get started.

Focus on the Doctrine of Jesus Christ

Finally, if you focus on the Doctrine of Christ as outlined in 3 Nephi 11, you will eventually succeed in gaining a strong foundation of truth. Those principles are the foundation of righteousness and you will never need to abandon them. If you find those principles to be obsolete, you are very likely deceived.

Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism (rebirth), becoming like a little child, receiving the Holy Ghost, are all things that are absolutely necessary to identify the deception within you. They are necessary for progression in this sphere. If you are focusing on making them a part of your daily life, you will naturally be identifying and overcoming deception within you.

I've seen some of these issues on this thread. I've seen some claiming untrue absolutes as methods of identifying deception. I've seen a focus on rooting deception out of others rather than looking inward. I feel my argument here is solid. It is born of me identifying that I was deceived about deception. It is a product of my personal change of heart. I would invite all to consider whether what I've shared is true and test these ideas in their lives. I do not believe anything I have shared here could be considered dangerous to salvation. I welcome any perspectives to the contrary.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Torquemada » Thu Sep 01, 2016 4:00 am

log wrote:I think if you can't explain why the teaching / teacher is false, it doesn't do any good to denounce it, since in that event you end up pitting one "authoritative" claim against another with just as little evidence and reason for people to accept it. This would seem to me to encourage side-taking and loyalty as the measure of acceptability, rather than truth. We produce sychophants rather than students and disciples of Christ in that event.

The number of wrong answers may literally be infinite, but the number of right answers is few, perhaps only one (up to isomorphism [ie, essentially changing the names / labels of things]). If one took it upon oneself to denounce all that is, or who are, false, one might be so busy that one has no time to publish the truth, the positive program of the gospel.


I didn't know you wanted examples. Go look at her videos for yourself if you want examples to satisfy your need for "authoritative" claims. (or are you setting yourself up as "authoritative"?) I didn't intend to give a point by point exhaustive critique which may not satisfy you anyway. I just can't keep all the people happy all the time. In fact I don't believe in keeping anybody happy at all. It's pointless to give flowers to a miserable spouse for the spouse will find fault with the color, the vase or the species.

I have published a long and exhaustive article in a psychology pub on how brainwashing and mind control are used in cults. I'm sure if you were really interested you would look for such to understand. But then you and I think very differently and I was there too, combing through the needles of the forest searching and searching before I realized it to be all a waste of time and my life. It is also a form of deception.

The problem is feelings and feelings are not logical and they will never be understood by logic or those that lock themselves into the Aristotelian logic box. The only difference between heaven and hell are feelings, nothing more. Simple as can be.

We need to pay more attention to what is within rather than that which is outside. What has all of my searching for all the tiny details gotten me so far? It distracted me from taking care of what was really important. Perhaps you understand a few needles more or different needles than myself, but if it does not make you a more loving, understanding and tolerant person, then it's a waste of time. In fact I contend that knowledge can never substitute for Godly love, patience and peace. Knowledge will never get anybody there. It's the feelings that rule, not the intellect. But then I have met intellectuals that behave as Mr. Spock (not saying that you are) and they managed to turn off their feelings totally unaware that it was feelings that led them to this sad condition.

Yes I was there, I was a Mr. Spock before I figured out I had wasted years of my life jousting windmills. I was a walking and talking encyclopedia and took all of of that and threw them into the fire and never looked back. I delivered perhaps 500 books to DI, a pickup bed full of banana boxes worth.

Life is so much better without them and it's great to be free.

Joseph Smith said the glory of God is intelligence, but some take this far too far and exclude what is really important. I once knew a young autistic man that memorized an entire telephone directory to a large city. It certainly kept him busy and amused for months, but in the end he was still autistic.

I must add that I still search, but I search to discover where my feelings are less than ideal. By reading or watching the works of others can help me find these weaknesses so I can immediately work on them. I search my memories more though, yes, that first day in kindergarten was a real bummer and what happened that day ruined my school experience for the next 13 years.
So what were my feelings? They are still there until they are released or forgiven. That day affected me more than all the reading, writing and 'rithmetic combined all the way into college. Intellectually understanding what happened that day didn't change a single feeling for decades. A few minutes of releasing my feelings about this is better than knowing all the mysteries of heaven.

So if you don't like my "authoritative" critique, which it was never meant to be, you have more than ample ability to find out for yourself.

So please everybody rid yourselves of self-righteousness, it is also a sin. I also had to do so.


The church does not have all the truth, otherwise why would we be admonished to seek further light and knowledge?

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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:14 am

I wasn't talking to you.



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