Detecting Decption

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Matthew
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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:22 pm

When something is being taught and it is a truism it will endure scrutiny and a closer examination, if it is false, it will be defeated by it's exposure to the light.

Light meaning the word of God as contained in the scriptures, i.e. revelation that is given for all to benefit.

The whole point of talking about how to detect deception, why discuss it in the first place, isn't to root out any one person(s), and pit everyone against them, it's purpose is to help individuals detect deception in their own lives. Ultimately the responsibility falls on the person to decide what is or isn't true.

In law enforcement training, and also in the military we were trained to look for certain behaviors, to identify threats, why, because simply the person or their activity needed closer examination for the welfare of all. In the parable of the Lords vineyard, the watchman on the watchtower did not build the center piece of the Lords vineyard and they allowed the Lords enemies to overcome His vineyard.... ought we to learn from the past mistakes of others or shall we for shits and giggles, repeat them ourselves?

Detecting deception is an individual responsibility for your own welfare, yes, exposing deception and the counterfeit teachings of others is also a group responsibility. It does not mean you need to name names, if someone is a predator of sorts and their actions dictate a warning call to go out and to name them to protect others, life and limb then let the warning cry be heard. The beautiful thing is, if you are not comfortable then you don't have to be involved and if you want to be involved in teaching others what has helped you to overcome or detect deception in your own life, then by all means share your experience and teach us.

If we are to be the Lords, His children, and thus a family we should be defending our Father, His ways are just and true and we ought to have one another's best interest at heart and should one of us detect an enemy at the gates we give the warning cry to all.

We can choose to teach one another by our experiences or we can choose to let the enemy take us down one by one, together, we can stand - divided we will be overcome.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:31 pm

Do you agree that it does not help, but rather harms, to make sychophants of people?

See, maybe we should be talking about the end goal, and seeing how to arrive at it. I think the Book of Mormon has some pointed advice towards that end. Not, of course, that this forum is intended to be a church... is it?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:49 pm

log wrote:Do you agree that it does not help, but rather harms, to make sychophants of people?

See, maybe we should be talking about the end goal, and seeing how to arrive at it. I think the Book of Mormon has some pointed advice towards that end. Not, of course, that this forum is intended to be a church... is it?


I don't know what you're saying, that is too big of a word for me... but no its not a church its a forum.

The only church I know of that is true is what Christ reveals as His church D&C 10:67-8 and the other church, the church of the Devil.

What is the end goal you are inferring too, exaltation, knowing God, all thee above?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Thu Sep 01, 2016 12:55 pm

If ye are not one, ye are not mine.... comes to mind from the scriptures. We each need to be one with the Lord, so we can in turn be one with one another.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:01 pm

Sychophants are followers, hangers-on, suck-ups, hypocrites looking to curry favor, etc. You get sychophants when you give people the answers rather than making them do the work (keep the commandments and sayings of Christ) to become competent problem-solvers themselves.

You might say that's a big part of the reason the Church is the way it is: a culture of hypocritical incompetents who were handed what they supposed were the answers to the big questions and think that compliance and conformity with the top dogs is sufficient.

When in reality the faith of Christ is a discipline, just like in the Karate Kid, which we learn by doing what the sensei tells us to do, so that we may in our turn become competent in the realm of conflict resolution, able to independently solve problems we haven't been confronted with before.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 01, 2016 2:22 pm

So here's some quick and dirty rules for detecting deceivers.

Mosiah 23:14
14 And also trust no one to be your teacher nor your minister, except he be a man of God, walking in his ways and keeping his commandments.


For that to work, you have to know the ways of God and be keeping his commandments yourself.

3 Nephi 11:29
29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.


If they are seeking to win, not to explain, that's pretty much what you're looking at.

2 Nephi 26:32
32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.


Self-explanatory.

Alma 1:16
16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.


Preaching false doctrines for the sake of riches and honor. That's the essence of priestcraft.

And again:

2 Nephi 26:29
29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold, priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.


Zion is an actual city, and an actual society.

2 Nephi 26:31
31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.


No asking for donations. No preaching for hire. No living stipend for service in the Church.

2 Nephi 26:33
33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.


So much for the red flags. What are the teachings of true messengers?

Mosiah 25:22
22 And thus, notwithstanding there being many churches they were all one church, yea, even the church of God; for there was nothing preached in all the churches except it were repentance and faith in God.


3 Nephi 15:10
10 Behold, I have given unto you the commandments; therefore keep my commandments. And this is the law and the prophets, for they truly testified of me.


3 Nephi 12:20
20 Therefore come unto me and be ye saved; for verily I say unto you, that except ye shall keep my commandments, which I have commanded you at this time, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


JST Matthew 5
21 Whosoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so to do, he shall in no wise be saved in the kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach these commandments of the law until it be fulfilled, the same shall be called great, and shall be saved in the kingdom of heaven.


3 Nephi 14:12
12 Therefore, all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets.


JST John 10
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheepfold.

8 All that ever came before me who testified not of me are thieves and robbers; but the sheep did not hear them.


IE, testify as an eyewitness. I acknowledge I am not such a witness.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Meili » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:02 pm

Here's the problem with taking scriptures as the final word: they are merely another incarnation of the arm of flesh. All scriptures were written by mankind. The scriptures themselves are not the word of God. They can be used to impart the word of God but they are not the word of God in and of themselves.

The scriptures have an additional flaw that a live prophet does not have. The writers in the scriptures cannot defend themselves against misinterpretation. A live prophet can make a blog post clarifying his position. A dead prophet would have to raise up from the dead to do so. Most don't bother.

The word of God is the word that God speaks to you through his Spirit. It's not unusual for a person to have such experiences when reading the scriptures. Unfortunately, the lusts of man can speak through the medium of the scriptures as well.

Scriptures can and have been used to justify all sorts of bad behavior. Want to kill your uncle or sacrifice your son? Want to wipe out a city and take the spoils? How about prostituting yourself to your father in law so you can have his child? It's all in there. The worst crimes have been done in the name of God justified by scriptures.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 01, 2016 10:34 pm

Well, how has your attitude towards the scriptures worked for you thus far?

And if it hasn't borne fruit, or has borne negative fruit, why keep doing the same thing?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Meili » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:44 am

It has borne fruit, log. Good fruit. I am no longer bound to try and understand the false, destructive ideas found in the Bible and other places.

Take these verses, for example:
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

So many times I have been in sorrow and fear because of my imperfect faith, believing that the Lord could not help me because I was wavering. The other day I realized I could safely reject this notion because I know, it is when I'm unsteady and wavering that the Lord steps in to help!

I want to emphasize that I'm not advocating throwing the scriptures out. I'm simply saying that they ought to be treated like any other arm of flesh source. The writers in the scriptures, for the most part, did what we want to do. They certainly have earned the right to have their words carefully considered. But we ought not to bind ourselves to every word of scripture as though they are all unequivocally true. The English language guarantees that they aren't.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:57 pm

1.) Personal interpretation of the scriptures is the problem. Meaning, you take an isolated verse and declare this is what it means - you can't do that, that's a private interpretation, in order to understand the scriptures you must take all the scriptures to form understanding, it requires the whole of them to understand a particular part not the other way around.

2.) God vouched for the scriptures and the men who wrote them and translated them. If there be errors it is mans.

3.) The scriptures are the a standard for establishing truth from error.

4.) law of witness require more than one witness to establish the word of God. The scriptures is one. There are others which validate to establish truth.

The scriptures are of great worth, they are more than the typical understood term arm of flesh, and reading them and living by the principles taught therein have lead me to know God, to come into His presence and to converse with Him but also with Angels. Because I read them, studied them and took my questions to God I was answered. I testify of their truthfulness and that one can draw closer to God by studying them and living by the principles taught therein. If there be any errors it is the errors of men in writing them, and the language etc.. The truths and principles are correct, even those who are reading them are not understanding them in their plainness. That is part of your struggle.

The truth however is always hidden in plain sight. It is simple and it always bears witness of the Father and the Son.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:08 pm

With regard to point 1, Matthew, all interpretations are necessarily private in the sense you mean it.

What Peter seems to be saying is something a bit different than what the LDS culture has taken him, very conveniently, to mean (which is, always, "if you disagree with me, yours is a private interpretation and thus anti-scriptural and I win the argument.").

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2pe ... es_1157020

From the NIV:

So I will always remind you of these things, even though you know them and are firmly established in the truth you now have. 13 I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, 14 because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort to see that after my departure you will always be able to remember these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[fn] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.


Which accords with the JST on the point under discussion:

15 Moreover I will endeavor that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17 For he received from God the Father honor and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have therefore a more sure knowledge of the word of prophecy, to which word of prophecy ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light which shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts;

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scriptures is given of any private will of man.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


Basically, the holy prophets who wrote the scripture weren't making shit up.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:50 pm

Correct in this instance that you are bringing to light, the prophets are speaking the words given to them by Christ and not their own personal words or thoughts. They deliver a message that was given to them to deliver by commandment.

What I am trying to explain is when we take a single verse, one thing and declare this is what it means to ourselves (not publicly or privately to another), then that is our private interpretation, but when we let the whole of the scriptures form our understanding rather than you interpreting it, that is not a private interpretation (unless you make it known to others) because you allow the whole word of God to establish its truth in you, if you want to pick apart the scriptures you can justify just about anything. But as a collective whole it contradicts our own private interpretation, confounds our beliefs and breaks down our traditions.

I also have taken notice that they teach that the 15 declare the meaning of scriptures and you do not, that is one way in which it is taught, "private interpretation" and they themselves deny the scriptures and cherry pick them also because they ignore the whole of the scriptures that define the word of God.

When it comes to a person declaring what the whole of the scriptures mean, even if they allowed the scriptures to form their understanding if they are not moved upon by the power of the Holy Ghost, and are not declaring the words by commandment they are free styling and that becomes a private interpretation, yes. So I see maybe I didn't explain my meaning well enough, hopefully you can see past my error and what I am instead trying to convey and not to be confused with what Peter said in declaring Gods word to others, but instead letting Gods word form in us His truths.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Meili » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:07 pm

Matthew wrote:1.) Personal interpretation of the scriptures is the problem. Meaning, you take an isolated verse and declare this is what it means - you can't do that, that's a private interpretation, in order to understand the scriptures you must take all the scriptures to form understanding, it requires the whole of them to understand a particular part not the other way around.

The words "personal interpretation" and "private interpretation" don't to me mean "interpreting a single verse out of context." It means to me interpreting things according to my personal understanding which is an issue everyone is subject to.

2.) God vouched for the scriptures and the men who wrote them and translated them. If there be errors it is mans.

I expect you have a reference for this. The problem is, if a man came to you and said, I'll never lead you astray, you would reject him. If the scriptures say, the word of God is found here and God approves of these words, why should I accept that testimony? And if I should expect additional witness, what witness should I seek? I know a few hundred people personally who would be willing vouch for President Monson's claim that he can't lead me astray.

Furthermore, you are going have to define the bounds of scripture as well so I know which words exactly God approves of and which he doesn't. Many claim only the Bible and stop there. Where should I stop in my consideration of what is scripture and what is not?


3.) The scriptures are the standard for establishing truth from error.

Says who? Which scriptures? The Song of Solomon?

4.) law of witness require more than one witness to establish the word of God. The scriptures is one. There are others which validate to establish truth.

Every witness must be validated by the Spirit of the Lord or it is not a true witness, no matter what source.

The scriptures are of great worth, they are more than the typical understood term arm of flesh, and reading them and living by the principles taught therein have lead me to know God, to come into His presence and to converse with Him but also with Angels. Because I read them, studied them and took my questions to God I was answered. I testify of their truthfulness and that one can draw closer to God by studying them and living by the principles taught therein. If there be any errors it is the errors of men in writing them, and the language etc.. The truths and principles are correct, even those who are reading them are not understanding them in their plainness. That is part of your struggle.

The truth however is always hidden in plain sight. It is simple and it always bears witness of the Father and the Son.

I would testify similarly of the scriptures. I would encourage anyone who desires to know God to read them, and spend plenty of time reading them as well. Hours per day is not too much. Living the principles written there is vital in becoming like Jesus.

That said, no one, not even God, claims that the scriptures are perfect. And no one can refute that scriptures can just as readily--no more readily--be used for evil purposes. In fact, it is only when they are said to be perfect and the final word that they can be used for evil. When you require spiritual validation of scripture, or any other source, in order for them to be counted as the word of God, then it is impossible for them to be used as tools of control and dominion. It is also more difficult for a person to use them to justify evil deeds.

Any type of idol worship is going to cause you trouble, even idolizing the scriptures. I think the history of the world provides more than ample evidence of that. I know my personal life does.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:34 pm

So no more burning incense to Buddha?

There's numerous examples in the scriptures where the words of the prophets have been validated by the Lord or the prophets themselves. And that the scriptures are the standard for measuring truth.

Ultimately it comes down to you, you need to define what is from God and what is from man, the Scriptures are a great source and they are but one witness. I can appreciate what you're saying and where you are coming from.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Meili » Fri Sep 02, 2016 8:16 pm

I can't think of any scriptures myself that say the scriptures are the standard for measuring truth. Care to share any?

In the Book of Mormon, the writers know that their words are the words of Christ and so they urge people to pray about what they have written. They know the Lord is going to back them up. They don't expect people to accept their words based on their own testimony that it is true. Nephi recognizes that those who accept Christ will also accept his words. They place the merits of their work on the Lord rather than requiring us to accept their words as is.

If I were to claim a standard of truth, I would say the Lord Jesus Christ is that standard. The tricky part is, many people think they know the Lord when they don't. And so there is a pretty heavy burden put on the individual to do the work to truly know the Lord.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:13 pm

Even the Lords spoken words to you while in His presence are confirmed by the spirit. They are made manifest by His power and glory. This promise is also made to us about the words in the Book of Mormon.

I would suggest picking up the earliest possible text or most original of the Book of Mormon, on another thread a link to a pdf was posted to the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon, and just start reading it page by page from the beginning and pay attention to everything they discuss especially when they reference "these words", or "our records", or "words of Christ" take note of them. There is references made throughout about the scriptures being our standard, an instrument to measure the words of others against it. The scriptures are one witness. They are worthy of our time.

The problems that the church has gotten itself into today is because they have denied the scriptures and listed to obey some other voice. Had they taken what was taught by the spirit, some other spirit, and not Gods against that which God has established as His words to mankind they would have seen their errors. They didn't believe the Book of Mormon, it wasn't until Hugh Nibley that they really came to accept the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Imagine that. After all this time. Hence why the Lord placed them under condemnation during Joseph's day for taking lightly the things written in that book. We are promised to have more, the sealed portion when we embrace and believe the Book of Mormon.

I would hope you would take my invitation and begin reading it again page by page from the beginning.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by SkyBird » Sat Sep 03, 2016 2:00 am

Meili wrote:I can't think of any scriptures myself that say the scriptures are the standard for measuring truth. Care to share any?

In the Book of Mormon, the writers know that their words are the words of Christ and so they urge people to pray about what they have written. They know the Lord is going to back them up. They don't expect people to accept their words based on their own testimony that it is true. Nephi recognizes that those who accept Christ will also accept his words. They place the merits of their work on the Lord rather than requiring us to accept their words as is.

If I were to claim a standard of truth, I would say the Lord Jesus Christ is that standard. The tricky part is, many people think they know the Lord when they don't. And so there is a pretty heavy burden put on the individual to do the work to truly know the Lord.


These might come close:

And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
10 Which was given by inspiration, and is confirmed to others by the ministering of angels, and is declared unto the world by them—
11 Proving to the world that the holy scriptures are true, and that God does inspire men and call them to his holy work in this age and generation, as well as in generations of old;
12 Thereby showing that he is the same God yesterday, today, and forever. Amen.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 20:8 - 12)

Therefore let the church take heed and pray always, lest they fall into temptation;
34 Yea, and even let those who are sanctified take heed also.
35 And we know that these things are true and according to the revelations of John, neither adding to, nor diminishing from the prophecy of his book, the holy scriptures, or the revelations of God which shall come hereafter by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, the voice of God, or the ministering of angels.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 20:33 - 35)

Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of. In the meantime we were forced to keep secret the circumstances of having received the Priesthood and our having been baptized, owing to a spirit of persecution which had already manifested itself in the neighborhood.
(Pearl of Great Price | JS-History 1:74)

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

(New Testament | John 17:11 - 13)

The standard for measuring truth is the "Spirit" speaking to our minds and hearts... I think the scriptures are just words and they only make sense when the "Spirit" witnesses a truth here and there when we are ready to listen.


"for any portion of the human family to be assimilated into their likeness is to be saved" (Lectures on Faith 7:16).

Meili

Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Meili » Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:15 am

Matthew wrote:Even the Lords spoken words to you while in His presence are confirmed by the spirit. They are made manifest by His power and glory. This promise is also made to us about the words in the Book of Mormon.

I would suggest picking up the earliest possible text or most original of the Book of Mormon, on another thread a link to a pdf was posted to the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon, and just start reading it page by page from the beginning and pay attention to everything they discuss especially when they reference "these words", or "our records", or "words of Christ" take note of them. There is references made throughout about the scriptures being our standard, an instrument to measure the words of others against it. The scriptures are one witness. They are worthy of our time.

The problems that the church has gotten itself into today is because they have denied the scriptures and listed to obey some other voice. Had they taken what was taught by the spirit, some other spirit, and not Gods against that which God has established as His words to mankind they would have seen their errors. They didn't believe the Book of Mormon, it wasn't until Hugh Nibley that they really came to accept the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Imagine that. After all this time. Hence why the Lord placed them under condemnation during Joseph's day for taking lightly the things written in that book. We are promised to have more, the sealed portion when we embrace and believe the Book of Mormon.

I would hope you would take my invitation and begin reading it again page by page from the beginning.

Sounds like a worthy pastime to me, although an LDS investigator copy will have to do.

In the meantime, this blog post might clarify what I feel about Nephi's use of the word "record."
http://bom.rosefromarock.com/2014/12/18 ... -a-record/



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:10 pm

they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written-- (D&C 84:57)



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by ChrisPark » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:55 pm

This is a good "standard" quote by Joseph

"If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter [impostor]."
(Joseph Smith - Times & Seasons Vol 5, pg 490; http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v5n07.htm)

The whole section this quote comes from actually fits quite well into this thread and addresses deception directly, saying that the scriptures should be used to avoid it.



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