Detecting Decption

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stillwater
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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by stillwater » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:54 pm

ChrisPark wrote:This is a good "standard" quote by Joseph

"If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter [impostor]."
(Joseph Smith - Times & Seasons Vol 5, pg 490; http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v5n07.htm)

The whole section this quote comes from actually fits quite well into this thread and addresses deception directly, saying that the scriptures should be used to avoid it.


That is from an editorial in the Times and Seasons, and was therefore almost certainly written by John Taylor who was the editor at the time. It is very commonly attributed to Joseph Smith, though without anything actually tying him to it. Still an excellent principle.


-Bob

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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by ChrisPark » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:06 am

stillwater wrote:
ChrisPark wrote:This is a good "standard" quote by Joseph

"If any man writes to you, or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter [impostor]."
(Joseph Smith - Times & Seasons Vol 5, pg 490; http://www.centerplace.org/history/ts/v5n07.htm)

The whole section this quote comes from actually fits quite well into this thread and addresses deception directly, saying that the scriptures should be used to avoid it.


That is from an editorial in the Times and Seasons, and was therefore almost certainly written by John Taylor who was the editor at the time. It is very commonly attributed to Joseph Smith, though without anything actually tying him to it. Still an excellent principle.



Good catch, thank you stillwater. Like you, I like the principle. I don't think I can say I've gotten further from God by reading the scriptures. Only by not reading them. Again, thanks for the correction.



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Matthew
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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:19 pm

Whether Joseph's words or John Taylor's matters not, they are a true principle.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:16 pm

Well, that knocks out Denver Snuffer (D&C 132).



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:24 pm

And Joseph (JST).




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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:19 pm

I believe Denver says that D&C 132 has been meddled with, and his revisions to the text can be reasonably construed as preaching "doctrines contrary" to the D&C (ie, the canonized texts as they stand). Joseph said the same about the Bible and produced the Joseph Smith Translation, which can be reasonably construed as preaching "doctrines contrary" to the Bible (ie, the canonized texts as they stand). Therefore, they are imposters by the standard of judgement given above.

That seems to be a problem.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:29 pm

That's one way to take it, from one extreme to the other, by that same standard we should throw them all out since they've all been meddled with.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:35 pm

I've said before and I'll say it again they are the standard for measuring truth, they are but ONE witness, it will require another witness to establish the truth. Nephi explains this well in 2 Nephi 33. The above statement by Taylor, doesn't diminish the law of witnesses, and does not end all controversy, it certainly states, that if one comes and teaches a doctrine contrary to the these three books, set them aside as an imposter. If you teach there is no God, but you are God as some in this movement are preaching - saying that Christ is not really Christ, He's only symbolic then certainly all three books would disagree and you are an imposter.

You still have the responsibility to go and get the truth from the spirit regardless.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:40 pm

My point is that if the principle is held true, then Denver and Joseph are both imposters (and this list is not exhaustive). If either Denver or Joseph is not an imposter, then the principle is false.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:42 pm

As Joseph says, it is by proving contraries that truth is made manifest.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:11 am

The Lord placed the church under condemnation because they treated lightly the Book of Mormon, even in its imperfect state, it being the most correct book according to Joseph, the writers in the Book of Mormon stated that these things are precious for our souls and wrote them for our day to be a benefit to us. God validated the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, then we ought to use truth to establish what is error. The scriptures should be our standard for establishing truth, not our only exclusive standard but a standard nonetheless.

It's not an either or, Joseph or Denver pitted against the scriptures, either the scriptures are right or Joseph and Denver are right in essence is what is being said, and one or the other must be false and neither can be true, I fail to see where either one of them did or taught things contrary to the scriptires. To come to that conclusion one would have to believe that both Denver and or Joseph consistently taught and have said things contrary and contradictory to the scriptures to contrast it in that light or that the scriptures are utterly false. I have found the scriptures to be truthful, they have always been a guide to me, a standard for truth and if I lacked wisdom or understanding I turned to the scriptures and then asked of God and He has unfolded the scriptures and shown me the plainness and truthfulness of them. I have also found Josephs words to be of worth and I have found Denvers words to also be of worth and have been blessed and enlarged in my life by them.

For the soul who is wondering around lost, who cannot get answers to prayers, who the spirit doesn't manifest itself to them, do they believe the words contained in the book and what it says about itself or do they just not believe and if they do not believe then how can one come to know the answer, if they ask, and pray, it's because they exercised faith as the book says to do, so they must believe so as to be able to get an answer even if that belief is small. As Nephi taught, If they don't believe at least believe Christ, and if you believe Christ then you will also believe these words, and He will manifest it to you by the power of His spirit. If He has not manifested it, one ought to examine why, are the words untrue or is it because one does not believe and they ask in vain, knowing already in their heart what they will or will not believe. In other words, if one inquires of Him and is not sincere, they essentially are tempting God by not coming to Him in humility but instead came seeking signs and for Him to disprove their own unbelief before they would believe. Even then they still would not believe. So what does it profit them to have a witness then to be brought under further condemnation by it.

If you be the son of God turn this stone into a loaf of bread, or cast your self down and the Angels will preserve you, so you do not dash your feet against the stones. We ought to believe in Christ and ask in all sincerity with humility.

And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness; (Ether 12)



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:39 am

I also find it interesting that Jospeh stated when the angel came to him that he repeated the same message and passage of scriptures exactly as it was in the Bible and Denver I think said that when angels came to him they often taught him out of the scriptures and expounded them to him. There must be a reason they teach from them.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:40 am

Matthew,

It is an either-or: either the principle is true, or the principle is false, and the principle cannot be both true and false. And if Joseph was not an imposter, then the principle is false, because he preached doctrines which contradicted the Bible.

And if the principle is true, then Joseph was an imposter, since he preached doctrines which contradicted the Bible.

Look at Heb. 6:1 contradictions--"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection." If a man leaves the principles of the doctrine of Christ, how can he be saved in the principles? This is contradiction. I don't believe it. I will render it as it should be--"Therefore not leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection, no laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment." - Joseph Smith


I'm not addressing the truth of the scriptures. I am not addressing whether Joseph was an imposter. I am addressing the principle which is proposed to divide true messengers from imposters, and I am pointing out that there is a problem with that proposed principle. How that problem gets solved is up to the individual according to what they value.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:46 am

Ok thanks for the clarification.

log wrote:And if the principle is true, then Joseph was an imposter, since he preached doctrines which contradicted the Bible.


Did he preach doctrines that contradicted all 3? I believe the litmess test is that the doctrine being taught needs to square up with all 3. That's how I take the statement to mean. Not one without the other, but that all stand together to establish a standard of truth.

If the scriptures are not a standard of truth, what are they?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:57 am

Matthew,

The proposed principle used "OR," not "AND," therefore if you contradict one, you're an imposter.

I think a more interesting way to view the scriptures is as the DNA of the body of Christ. There may be mutations, sure. But you (speaking generally) won't know that unless you are taking the instructions therein seriously and performing them.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Mon Sep 05, 2016 11:19 am

Linguistically fine, you are correct, I didn't read a difference though between "and" neither the "or" to singly divide them. Because it seems he didn't draw a singular contrast when he said:

contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon


The "or" is missing, but rather these two are unified, not to split hairs. Then he as matter of thought added "or" the book of Doctrine and Covenants, at least the Bible and Book of Mormon was not an "or" but in addition, as jointly together, that is why I read it that way. That all 3 should stand together to establish truth. Leaving the "and" or
the "or" aside do the scriptures teach we shouldn't believe them, do they teach we should not use them for establishing Christs words or His gospel to us? They don't. They teach the opposite. They teach these are Christs words, they teach His gospel, they testify of Him.

Would common sense dictate that if someone teaches something and all 3 contradict the persons teachings that they are likely an imposter? I would go so far as to say we should take not only these 3 but also the Pearl of Great Price as well as other uncannonized revelations and when studying the apocrypha comparing the things taught in these scriptures to help you establish truth or if someone says or teaches something that is in contrast differently and contradictory altogether than all these, the 3, and Pearl of Great Price etc... These should defeat their words. These should be used In order to teach correct principles.

Is the Book of Mormon, the revelations etc... The words of God to us?

If the scriptures are not a standard of truth, then what are they?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:42 pm

When we say "this, that, or the other," the commas represent implicit conjunctions or disjunctions. We don't know which it is - conjunction ("AND") or disjunction ("OR") until the ambiguity is resolved by the final explicit conjunction or disjunction - if it's a conjunction, then all commas in the list represent the same conjunction; if it's a disjunction, then all commas in the list represent the same disjunction. That's simply how English works. That's why "this, that, or the other" is therefore equivalent to "this OR that OR the other," not "this AND that OR the other."

That's why the principle is false or Joseph was an imposter.

I don't know that my view of scripture can be simply stated beyond the DNA metaphor, so I will forbear from explaining it.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by stillwater » Mon Sep 05, 2016 2:52 pm

I see log's point. The statement in the OP is simplistic. The collections of scripture listed by Taylor aren't self-consistent, perfectly preserved, or comprehensive, so truth often contradicts one or more of them.

For someone to preach doctrines contrary to them and have me consider them, they need to make a good case that the text we have isn't preserving whatever truth was originally revealed, or are fabricated altogether. That actually happens a lot for me, so maybe Taylor's statement needs some caveats.


-Bob

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Matthew
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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:05 pm

Stillwater and Log, love you both my brothers. God is good and His words are true. Pray on any matter that comes to you and obtain His mind and will for yourselves.



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