Detecting Decption

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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:20 pm

I would argue - and I bet you'd agree - that unless and until one has been acclaimed a Son of God, the scriptures are opaque (Joseph already made Stillwater's point about the actual contents being corrupted). That's why Nephi said the words of Isaiah are plain unto all who are filled with the spirit of prophecy. As one obeys the commandments, the scriptures get clearer and clearer until (I assume) the perfect day.

The process begins when one hears a witness testify, and believes, and obeys the word. Unfortunately, there is no external standard to divide true witnesses from false prophets that can be given that will be foolproof; there will always be a seeming counterexample.

And for those who insist on gathering opinions, and then setting men against one another in a necessarily futile attempt to see who's right by contention, there can be no help.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:37 pm

What has the spirit spoke expressedly to you about this matter?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:42 pm

Oh, nothing. First-order contradictions don't get resolved.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:47 pm

That is, after all, how we tell someone is at best mistaken, at worst lying.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:58 pm

The argument from authority is always and ever invalid.



Meili

Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Meili » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:00 pm

To me, the statement is utterly false. It is based on outward testimonies and sets a person up for misjudging others.

In the temple allegory, Adam was tested first by the true messengers. He had to be a certain kind of individual in order to demonstrate, unknowingly, that he was worthy to receive messengers from the Father.

After he had done so, the messengers were allowed to reveal themselves and then Adam tested them to see if they were true messengers asking them for the token and sign they had been taught.

Tokens and signs are not secret handshakes. They are principles, commandments if you will, which have been distilled upon your soul. You have them because you have become a certain kind of person. In your higher state of being, you naturally detect, through testing others, those who have also obtained the characteristics you have. If you are humble and teachable, the same instinct can help you identify those who are further along the path and have truth to offer.

Parsing words, from a man or from the written word, will lead to confusion unless directed by the Spirit. But then, if it is directed by the Spirit, it is not the words you are relying on to teach you truth.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by bmidget » Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:49 am

I like this key to detecting deception from Moroni:

Moroni 7:17
... for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:05 pm

Clarification required on doing good:

Moroni 7
5 For I remember the word of God which saith by their works ye shall know them; for if their works be good, then they are good also.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.

10 Wherefore, a man being evil cannot do that which is good; neither will he give a good gift.


As the brother of Jared said:

Ether 3:2

O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.


So what is required is a change of nature, which Mormon gives us directions for.

Moroni 7
42 Wherefore, if a man have faith he must needs have hope; for without faith there cannot be any hope.

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not charity he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth forever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.


A word on good works:

Acts 10:38
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


23 And Christ truly said unto our fathers: If ye have faith ye can do all things which are expedient unto me.

24 And now I speak unto all the ends of the earth—that if the day cometh that the power and gifts of God shall be done away among you, it shall be because of unbelief.

25 And wo be unto the children of men if this be the case; for there shall be none that doeth good among you, no not one. For if there be one among you that doeth good, he shall work by the power and gifts of God.

26 And wo unto them who shall do these things away and die, for they die in their sins, and they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God; and I speak it according to the words of Christ; and I lie not.


Mark 9:39
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.


Indeed...

3 Nephi 8:1
[I]t was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity—


So good works are miracles - like what Jesus did - and doing good is what those who have charity do.




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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:30 am

So I find myself in an odd position.

I trust the scriptures, but the scriptures are not my foundation, and I acknowledge errors therein.

I trust Joseph Smith, but Joseph Smith is not my foundation, and I acknowledge errors in him.

It is because I heard, and believed, the nearly 2000-year-old testimony recorded in Luke 6 that I became acquainted with the Lord's voice. It was the Lord who vouched for Joseph to me when I read, and believed, the King Follett Discourse.

We are indebted, in the first place, as Joseph said, upon testimony for belief. How else can we become aware of that which we have no knowledge of, save it be by the testimony of witnesses?

And if we do not recognize the voice of the Lord, how can we tell who is from God or not?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:26 am

In the end, the only way to detect deception is by knowing the truth. The path to knowing the truth begins with believing others even as a little child believes others. And then we get deceived. And then we discern that we have been deceived. And then we get butthurt over being deceived. And then we struggle to find out what the truth is. And eventually, we either find it or reject the idea that there is any truth at all to be found. And when we find the truth, then we can detect deceivers.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:57 am

There is a guy who is unbelieving, and also he does not wish for the truth to be true - so he's hostile to the truth even when it is declared. He is looking for surety in matters religious but is unwilling to turn aside from persecuting others - laying burdens upon others which he himself flees from when laid upon him, lying, comitting fraud, accusing of sundry sins, and so on - and contending against others.

He collects opinions. He tests the opinions for internal consistency, and tests the opinions against what he understands the scriptures or the prophets to be implying (not actually saying). He sets one man against another in an attempt to see who has the stronger argument, and if someone has a stronger argument, he provisionally accepts it. But only provisionally, as a philosophical hypothetical, not as an actual reality to be obeyed necessarily. Because, in the end, it is still only an opinion, and someone else might come along later with a stronger argument and then this opinion, provisionally accepted, would be overturned. So he relies upon none of them as a foundation because he knows there is no firmness, no surety in any of these opinions.

So, given this, why collect the opinions at all, since no opinion can ever serve to be a foundation of knowledge upon which to anchor his soul? Simple: he does not believe in God, really. He wants to know there is a God before he will believe. He is hoping to find someone who is completely consistent in everything, who (ideally) confirms his Orthodox Christian theology, and then he might believe. Maybe. Probably not, because even then he might come across someone even more consistent, perhaps, who contradicts this other guy; after all, this is why he keeps collecting opinions in the first place.

So, no collecting of opinions alter the way he feels towards things. He still, in the end, disbelieves everyone in his heart, because he's afraid of being taken advantage of. It's a feeling, not a rational thing, that impels him in this course. That feeling causes him to view everyone else with suspicion. And to abuse them to make sure they aren't looking to abuse him - only that never works, since he is merely giving them cause to abuse him by his abusing them, and he understands in his heart that he is doing wrong and inviting abuse by this.

The only way out is to pray unto that God - even Jesus Christ - whom he says he believes in, but really doesn't - you can tell because he abuses others - even until either that God answers, or he dies in the attempt, pouring out all the energy of his heart in the prayer.

There is no other way to change the way he feels about things, and only direct experience will give him the knowledge and surety he seeks. But, alas, fear whispers to him to not do this; God, it whispers, isn't there, and won't hear him because of his sins. And it is this fear that keeps him locked into this futile course of seeking opinions on matters pertaining to heaven and abusing those who do good to him.

All of this stems from his unbelief, which is hostility, which is fear.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by log » Thu Sep 08, 2016 11:37 am

As an aside, does it make sense to persecute anyone who claims to bear a message from God? Was not Gamaliel correct when he said it was wiser to do nothing against such, lest haply ye should be found to be fighting God?

Do you suppose that by persecuting his servants - if, indeed, they are such - you will endear yourself to the God of these servants? Or might such conduct displease such a God?

Particularly a God who says "everything you wish others would do to you, do to others, for this is my law, and the teaching of my servants"?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by TrueIntent » Thu Sep 08, 2016 3:37 pm

Matthew wrote:We have the scriptures in addition to the spirit, the word of God, Lehi/Nephi saw this in a vision, the WORD is to be our guide, those who hold to the rod were able to find their way through the darkness. They did start off first being led off into the darkness by an unknown being until they cried out for help. It seems the first step is to ask or cry out for deliverance, a dark and dreary place suggests to me no knowledge of God or a place at least void of knowledge of the things of God as they found themselves in initially.

When we wrest the scriptures, we let go of that sure word of God. Without His word we open our selves up to strange teachings, doctrines, that are rife with counterfeits to the scriptures.

Counterfeit, I don't think we pay enough attention to what this word means, something that is counterfeit so closely matches and resembles an object or in this case the truth, that it is barely discernible as being fake, not the real McCoy, it is passed off as being genuine by most people unless you have a trained eye, the ability to detect the counterfeit and or the deception is difficult, it is not easily discernible. If it is an obvious untruth, that is not a counterfeit, if it is contrasted it stands out, those are easy to spot, it is when something so closely resembles the truth, it is almost as if it were true and by all accounts it is true until detected otherwise.

Are people feigning revelation, or being deceived by false, lying, and unclean spirits? I believe some are. But when we hold them or what they say or teach against the light (scriptures) we can see the truth of it for ourselves.

God also gives us what we want, if we believe something that is true, but isn't and we refuse to accept the answer. He will give us what we want even if it causes us to stumble. Read Jacob 4:14. Are you stumbling and believing a counterfeit, if you know, you obviously change the path and drop the belief, hopefully, but what if you do not know, how can you detect it - is asking, crying out even if you are not sure the key to freeing yourself?

The spirit and the scriptures combined I know will help us, those on the path, who are holding to the rod, who have the word of God, still fell away, became deceived, swallowed up the mist of darkness with sin, pride seems to be one of those major things numeral uno that brings the house of cards down, being ashamed of God or of His word, maybe that is another for some, or shame in themselves, rather than repent and admit the truth they seek to hide it.

I have been deceived, last year, I was told I was done, I was saved, I had seen the Father and been in His presence and that I didn't have to do anything else - it truly felt good, I thought wow, I can relax. I struggled with this persistent voice and thought, I almost felt at one point overcome by it, accepting it as a truth, when reading the scriptures and I can't recall the words I read, but it stirred up my soul and I knew the thoughts and impressions I was receiving were from a lying and unclean spirit. It stirred me up to repentance for thinking that I could coast the rest of my life, and that I did not have more work to do, I suppose the devil doesn't want me sharing my own experiences and helping others - it is something that we must constantly stand on guard against. I recalled Denver's words too as this point, rushing to my mind, paraphrasing from memory that while we are still yet in the flesh we are liable to fall.

I have had a spirit and a tabernacled being appear to me as a being of light and glory, and by His grace was able to detect them and they could no longer keep up their disguise as a being of light and I saw them for what and who they were.

People seem pretty impatient and want immediate signs to follow, so they're willing to believe just about anything that could be a sign. Why is it that people rather believe a quick lie, counterfeit, rather than waiting it out for the slow but genuine truth?!

What are some things that have helped you to guard against deception, against counterfeits?

What do the scriptures teach, do they teach us to guard ourselves against deception, if so what do they have to say about it?

The old cunning one, is very deceitful, so deceitful that if it were possible even the very elect will be deceived.

This is serious folks, what are your thoughts?


Matthew, would you be willing to elaborate on your experience with this...

"I have had a spirit and a tabernacled being appear to me as a being of light and glory, and by His grace was able to detect them and they could no longer keep up their disguise as a being of light and I saw them for what and who they were."

Did you see it with your mind's eye? Or did you feel a vibration indicating their glory? Or was it a completely physical thing you saw with your eyes? What do you mean "by His grace" that you detected him?

I have recently been interacting with people who claim to have interacted with translated beings....I'm curious what your experience is. I get confused if people have seen something in their mind, or actually in real life. I'm trying to avoid being decieved myself. I feel very good about the path I am on but I am also throwing things out when I need to. I'm very interested in your experience.....are you willing to share more details?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:50 pm

TrueIntent wrote:Matthew, would you be willing to elaborate on your experience with this...

Matthew wrote:"I have had a spirit and a tabernacled being appear to me as a being of light and glory, and by His grace was able to detect them and they could no longer keep up their disguise as a being of light and I saw them for what and who they were."


Did you see it with your mind's eye? Or did you feel a vibration indicating their glory? Or was it a completely physical thing you saw with your eyes? What do you mean "by His grace" that you detected him?

I have recently been interacting with people who claim to have interacted with translated beings....I'm curious what your experience is. I get confused if people have seen something in their mind, or actually in real life. I'm trying to avoid being decieved myself. I feel very good about the path I am on but I am also throwing things out when I need to. I'm very interested in your experience.....are you willing to share more details?


Sure...

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So yes, these things can and do happen, I don't disbelieve everyone either. I have talked to people who have seen and experienced similar to my own and to what the scriptures or Joseph has had to say about it.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by David Park » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:54 am

Matthew said
"I do not believe she was translated, but instead a tabernacled being, she appeared as though she came through the ceiling"
Matt, can you explain to me the difference in one who is a translated being vs. a tabernacled being? using the words of scripture?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:38 pm

David Park wrote:Matthew said
"I do not believe she was translated, but instead a tabernacled being, she appeared as though she came through the ceiling"
Matt, can you explain to me the difference in one who is a translated being vs. a tabernacled being? using the words of scripture?

Excellent question, be happy too, but unfortunately things are a little chaotic, that question deserves a valid response, I just wont be able to get to it until a little later today or tomorrow.



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by David Park » Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:55 pm

Matthew, I reread your description above and received an answer. Therefore please do not respond to my question for my sake, I am more than satisfied with what I received. Thanks for your response, David..



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by MichaelB » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:01 am

Matthew wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:50 pm
...As for other peoples experiences I don't know, I tend to hear people, and generally do not believe them, simply because they don't match what the scriptures have said, or my own experiences, but I try to give others the benefit of the doubt. There is always the possibility that they are telling the truth, to me, hearing others it seems sensational when I hear things like a "portal" opened up...
So if you're skeptical, does that mean that you don't love them ( or that you're somehow lacking in charity )?

Is that how you understand 1 Corinthians 13:7?



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Re: Detecting Decption

Post by Matthew » Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:05 am

MichaelB wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:01 am
Matthew wrote:
Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:50 pm
...As for other peoples experiences I don't know, I tend to hear people, and generally do not believe them, simply because they don't match what the scriptures have said, or my own experiences, but I try to give others the benefit of the doubt. There is always the possibility that they are telling the truth, to me, hearing others it seems sensational when I hear things like a "portal" opened up...
So if you're skeptical, does that mean that you don't love them ( or that you're somehow lacking in charity )?

Is that how you understand 1 Corinthians 13:7?
MichaelB wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:01 am
So if you're skeptical, does that mean that you don't love them
What? You're reading what you want to read into it.

MichaelB wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:01 am
Is that how you understand 1 Corinthians 13:7?
You might be able to read the words but you do not comprehend the things of God.


The OP is about detecting deception - what your comment amounts to is derailing the thread and making the discussion about you.



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