The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

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MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:38 pm

And I'm politely, and respectfully requesting that you tell us if that is what you're saying, however distasteful you may find repeating yourself, or retracting something you said.

I the sermon on the mount does call upon us to do the distasteful, and go the extra mile, does it not?



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:39 pm

It does or it does not. Who can or cannot know?



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:41 pm

I understand that you, Michael, are hoping that I will recant.

If I recant, then I lied or was in error in reporting words from God.

Then it becomes more plausible that I have always been lying or mistaken.

The words I stated were spoken to me by God were spoken to me by God.

And unlike Saul, I know you have read those words, and did not believe them.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:34 am

log wrote:
Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:41 pm
I understand that you, Michael, are hoping that I will recant.

If I recant, then I lied or was in error in reporting words from God.

Then it becomes more plausible that I have always been lying or mistaken.

The words I stated were spoken to me by God were spoken to me by God.

And unlike Saul, I know you have read those words, and did not believe them.
And we both know that you, Log ( or Jared, if I can call you that now that you have an "about me" page, and have identified yourself on your blog ), were raised LDS, and baptized when you were around 8, and were taught certain basic things about God, Jesus, the crucifixion, the atonement, and the resurrection that all Christians believe.

And that you were also taught about Joseph Smith, and the Book of Mormon, and the first vision.

And we both know that as an adult, you rejected all of it, because in the same post we've been talking about here, you said that you had been an "atheist," and "had concluded that there was no God," and that "all religion was bunk," and that you went around doing "whatever" you felt you "could reasonably get away with," and "listened to no one."

Those are all direct quotes, and doesn't that mean that you rejected the memoirs of the Apostles ( The New Testament ), the Book of Mormon, and the first vision?

And if Paul, and the original Apostles, and Joseph Smith, were and are authorized messengers, wouldn't that mean that you rejected them?

And if you had literally heard God's voice when you posted that reply to Aussie four years ago, how could you tell me, less then four years ago ( when we were talking about what you mean by "knowledge" ) that you didn't "know" there was a God because you still hadn't seen Him?

I know they say "seeing is believing," but wasn't literally hearing His voice tell you that you had spoken stout words against His servants ( after you read PtHG ) enough to tell you that He's there?

You are, of course, free to deny telling me that you didn't "know" He exists less then four years ago ( and to again call me a liar ), but I know what you said, and I would like to know if you deny it.

And I'd like to know if we're talking about a literal, audible voice here.

Thank you.



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:02 pm

I do not deny that I do not know God exists for the simple reason I have not seen him.

The voice was in my mind.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:36 pm

log wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:02 pm
I do not deny that I do not know God exists for the simple reason I have not seen him.

The voice was in my mind.
Thank you.

And if you don't "know" that God exists, you can't possibly know that that voice was God's, can you?

And you can't possibly "know" the minds and hearts of those to whom you impute motives, can you?

So you do publicly "judge" people, do you not?

And since you have no contrary "knowledge," wouldn't you be lacking charity every time you didn't believe anything anyone said ( if 1 Corinthians 13:7 means what you say it means )?
Last edited by MichaelB on Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:01 pm

And we do not read that Stephen had ever seen God until his martyrdom.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:03 pm

I was in the process of editing my last post when you were writing your reply.

And I added some questions your post doesn't address.
MichaelB wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:36 pm
log wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:02 pm
I do not deny that I do not know God exists for the simple reason I have not seen him.

The voice was in my mind.
Thank you.

And if you don't "know" that God exists, you can't possibly know that that voice was God's, can you?

And you can't possibly "know" the minds and hearts of those to whom you impute motives, can you?

So you do publicly "judge" people, do you not?

And since you have no contrary "knowledge," wouldn't you be lacking charity every time you didn't believe anything anyone said ( if 1 Corinthians 13:7 means what you say it means )?
P.S. And if "knowledge" is what you say it is?



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:18 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:36 pm

And if you don't "know" that God exists, you can't possibly know that that voice was God's, can you?
Not any more than Stephen knew until he saw him in heaven at his martyrdom, assuming he had not before then seen God.
And you can't possibly "know" the minds and hearts of those to whom you impute motives, can you?
I can, with the same certainty I know there to be a God.
So you do publicly "judge" people, do you not?
You come to me and tell me you are a liar and a hypocrite by contradicting what you say you believe both in words and in actions. I simply repeat to you what you tell me and describe your behavior. If you did not come to me and persecute me and tell me what was in your heart, I wouldn't know you to be both a liar and a hypocrite.
And since you have no contrary "knowledge," wouldn't you be lacking charity every time you didn't believe anything anyone said ( if 1 Corinthians 13:7 means what you say it means )?
I know you to be a liar and a hypocrite, Michael. For example, I know you do not believe Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:7, and you have no other source of knowledge about charity than what you've read in the Bible, so you have no grounds for disbelieving Paul. Yet you do disbelieve Paul. At every point you are tested to see what you actually do believe in the Bible, you crumble.

Shrug. Like I said: if you left me alone, I wouldn't know what you are. But your enmity towards me won't permit you to leave me alone, will it?



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:50 pm

I can, with the same certainty I know there to be a God.
But you just said you don't know that God exists because you haven't seen Him.
You come to me and tell me you are a liar and a hypocrite by contradicting what you say you believe both in words and in actions.
In other words, you reach a conclusion via observation and deduction, and you don't consider that "judging," do you?

So when you contradict what you say you believe, both in words and in actions, am I free to reach some conclusion about you without judging?
So if you contradict what you say you believe, both in words and in actions, I suppose



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:55 pm

I can, with the same certainty I know there to be a God.
But you just said you don't know that God exists because you haven't seen Him.
You come to me and tell me you are a liar and a hypocrite by contradicting what you say you believe both in words and in actions.
In other words, you reach a conclusion via observation and deduction, and you don't consider that "judging," do you?

So when you contradict what you say you believe, both in words and in actions, am I free to reach some conclusion about you without judging?



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:57 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:50 pm
I can, with the same certainty I know there to be a God.
But you just said you don't know that God exists because you haven't seen Him.
And I just said I know there to be a God. It all depends on what "know" means, doesn't it?
You come to me and tell me you are a liar and a hypocrite by contradicting what you say you believe both in words and in actions.
In other words, you reach a conclusion via observation and deduction, and you don't consider that "judging," do you?
I observe.
So when you contradict what you say you believe, both in words and in actions, am I free to reach some conclusion about you without judging?
Well, as Jesus said in the book you don't believe, with what judgement you judge, you shall be judged. So, if you judge me, make sure it's by a standard you will yourself pass, because the same cross you nail me to shall be the cross you shall be nailed to.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:09 pm

And I just said I know there to be a God. It all depends on what "know" means, doesn't it?
So it would appear you use the word in more than one sense.

Perhaps other words can have more than one meaning too?
I observe.
As do I.

And I do believe Jesus, and that book you spoke of.



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:24 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:09 pm
And I just said I know there to be a God. It all depends on what "know" means, doesn't it?
So it would appear you use the word in more than one sense.

Perhaps other words can have more than one meaning too?
Shrug. Go ask an English teacher.
I observe.
As do I.

And I do believe Jesus, and that book you spoke of.
If only you did.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:07 pm

log wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:24 pm
Shrug. Go ask an English teacher.
I asked you because you accuse others ( like bmidget and myself ) of calling Jesus a liar, and of being unbelievers, if they don't understand the word "hate" ( in Luke 9:23 ) the way you do.

Here, you seem to be using the word "know" in two different senses.
log wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:02 pm
I do not deny that I do not know God exists for the simple reason I have not seen him.

The voice was in my mind.
log wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:18 pm
MichaelB wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:36 pm

And if you don't "know" that God exists, you can't possibly know that that voice was God's, can you?
Not any more than Stephen knew until he saw him in heaven at his martyrdom, assuming he had not before then seen God.
And you can't possibly "know" the minds and hearts of those to whom you impute motives, can you?
I can, with the same certainty I know there to be a God.
So mightn't other words have more than one meaning?

And if you have any real certainty that you heard and understood God correctly when the voice in your mind told you you had spoken stout words against His servants, why did you ever write this?
I am unable to visit that website due to having been banned, and as the contents of that website are under copyright by Brian Meacham, you cannot legally reproduce them here. I will not accept a paraphrase of my words from you, given your demonstrated penchant for poor reading and lies.

Therefore all I can say is whatever I myself wrote at the time represented my true and honest belief at that time.
And may I please ask you what you meant here ( on Feb. 9th, 2016 )?
log wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:30 pm
...I do not regret the path I have taken from birth to today.
http://remnantofjacobforum.com/viewtopi ... 5156#p5156

According to your post on the LDS Freedom Forum, you were once an atheist who went about doing whatever he thought he could get away with, and listening to no one.

Wasn't that a slight deviation from the path, and don't you regret it?

And didn't John say this?

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." ( 1 John 1:8-10. )

Do you believe that?



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:52 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:07 pm
log wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:24 pm
Shrug. Go ask an English teacher.
I asked you because you accuse others ( like bmidget and myself ) of calling Jesus a liar, and of being unbelievers, if they don't understand the word "hate" ( in Luke 9:23 ) the way you do.
That is, I call you a liar when you pretend to believe Jesus's words and even though the Greek agrees with the English, you deny he meant hate when you acknowledge he said hate.
Here, you seem to be using the word "know" in two different senses.
log wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:02 pm
I do not deny that I do not know God exists for the simple reason I have not seen him.

The voice was in my mind.
log wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 1:18 pm
MichaelB wrote:
Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:36 pm

And if you don't "know" that God exists, you can't possibly know that that voice was God's, can you?
Not any more than Stephen knew until he saw him in heaven at his martyrdom, assuming he had not before then seen God.
And you can't possibly "know" the minds and hearts of those to whom you impute motives, can you?
I can, with the same certainty I know there to be a God.
So mightn't other words have more than one meaning?
Ask an English teacher.
And if you have any real certainty that you heard and understood God correctly when the voice in your mind told you you had spoken stout words against His servants, why did you ever write this?
I am unable to visit that website due to having been banned, and as the contents of that website are under copyright by Brian Meacham, you cannot legally reproduce them here. I will not accept a paraphrase of my words from you, given your demonstrated penchant for poor reading and lies.

Therefore all I can say is whatever I myself wrote at the time represented my true and honest belief at that time.
I wrote that to express the sentiments I wrote in writing that.
And may I please ask you what you meant here ( on Feb. 9th, 2016 )?
log wrote:
Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:30 pm
...I do not regret the path I have taken from birth to today.
http://remnantofjacobforum.com/viewtopi ... 5156#p5156
I meant what was written there.
According to your post on the LDS Freedom Forum, you were once an atheist who went about doing whatever he thought he could get away with, and listening to no one.

Wasn't that a slight deviation from the path, and don't you regret it?
I do not know what you think you are asking, as your question makes no sense on its face unless you care to define "the path," and as for whether I regret it, you already have my answer.
And didn't John say this?

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." ( 1 John 1:8-10. )

Do you believe that?
I do believe it.



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