The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

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log
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The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:30 pm

Alma 32:22 And now, behold, I say unto you, and I would that ye should remember, that God is merciful unto all who believe on his name; therefore he desireth, in the first place, that ye should believe, yea, even on his word.


That is the very first test of the Gospel: merely to believe; to be believing as a little child would be believing, on the word of God. When someone fails that first test, there is no helping them; they see you as an enemy, which is why they disbelieve you, and they accept nothing you say except they see a demonstration of it - proof ("beyond reasonable doubt;" "extraordinary evidence"), or, in other words, a sign - that they may know and not be required to believe, to trust, or to have faith, none of which alleviates their insecurity and disbelief; they require certainty and security of their enemies.

People do not voluntarily go to their enemies for help, but only under duress or coercion from a greater enemy or threat, and even then there is no trust - they are, after all, enemies, and fear is the rule between them - and there is inevitably a seeking of ways of screwing them over before one is oneself screwed over, or securing oneself from the inevitable screwing. So whatever they receive from their enemy is viewed with suspicion and doubt. Lack of evidence of malice is not evidence of lack of malice, after all - there could always be a hidden trap or poison or lie somewhere we're not looking, a hidden method of enslavement.

So you can't help the disbelieving - not in this internet context, anyways.

The first rule of a civil society is simply that the citizens be not hostile against their fellows. Disbelief is a sure sign of hostility (via the principle of psychological projection; see Romans 2:1 - the disbeliever believes the other is a liar). If then a man is hostile against his fellows, he will not voluntarily endure their society eternally. Think about it.



bmidget
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by bmidget » Mon Nov 28, 2016 12:49 am

Well I think you make a decent point that the person you do not believe is your enemy (you assume them to be a liar). It's an interesting perspective but one I think it true.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:17 am

I recently read an interesting quote.

"Paul's words in praise of charity do not mean that we should depreciate the charity of any man who does not at once believe everything he hears. The same charity forbids us easily to believe any evil of a brother, and counts it rather as a part of itself not to believe when it hears such evil spoken. The charity which believes all things also believes not every spirit. We are not told that it believes all men: it believes all things, but it's belief is given to God. There can be no doubt that the faith commended by the apostle is that whereby God is believed."



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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:41 pm

The paid ministry wouldn't be paid if they told people things they didn't want to hear. The paid ministry is paid precisely because they tell people what they want to hear.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 4:56 pm

Change the subject an attack paid ministers, even though Paul said
Have we not power to eat and to drink? Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? Who goeth a warfare anytime at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written; that he that plougheth should plough in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel shall live of the gospel.
http://scriptures.info/Scriptures/nt/1corinthians/3/

And
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn, and, The laborer is worthy of his reward.
http://scriptures.info/Scriptures/nt/1timothy/

And Doctrine and Covenants says
And again, thus saith the Lord unto you, O ye elders of my church who have given your names that you might know His will concerning you, behold I say unto you that it is the duty of the church to assist in supporting the families of those, and also to support the families of those, who are called and must needs be sent unto the world to proclaim the gospel unto the world. Wherefore I the Lord give unto you this commandment, that ye obtain places for your families inasmuch as your brethren are willing to open their hearts. And let all such, as can obtain places for their families and support of the church for them, not fail to go into the world, whether to the east or to the west, or to the north or to the south. Let them ask and they shall receive, knock and it shall be opened unto them and made known from on high, even by the Comforter, whither they shall go. And again, verily I say unto you, Every man who is obliged to provide for his own family, let him provide and he shall in no wise lose his crown, and let him labor in the church. Let every man be diligent in all things, and the idler shall not have place in the church except he repents and mends his ways...
http://scriptures.info/Scriptures/dc/section/78/

And even though you've now covenanted to accept these passages as scripture.

I still find this quote interesting ( and you haven't addressed the substance by attacking paid clergy--you've simply engaged in the logical fallacy of argumentum ad hominem. )

"Paul's words in praise of charity do not mean that we should depreciate the charity of any man who does not at once believe everything he hears. The same charity forbids us easily to believe any evil of a brother, and counts it rather as a part of itself not to believe when it hears such evil spoken. The charity which believes all things also believes not every spirit. We are not told that it believes all men: it believes all things, but it's belief is given to God. There can be no doubt that the faith commended by the apostle is that whereby God is believed."



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:08 pm

I know you find that quote interesting, and I understand you find it interesting as a possible way to defeat Paul's words, that charity believeth all things, that you may disbelieve and reject what you do not know is false and simultaneously claim to men to have charity, that you may claim to men to be saved.

In other words, Augustine, a paid minister, said something you like, by giving you a possible way around what Paul said about charity, which you don't like.

Good luck with that.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:45 pm

log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:08 pm
I know you find that quote interesting, and I understand you find it interesting as a possible way to defeat Paul's words, that charity believeth all things, that you may disbelieve and reject what you do not know is false and simultaneously claim to men to have charity, that you may claim to men to be saved.
But don't you disbelieve and reject what you don't know to be false and simultaneously claim to men to have charity, that you may claim to be saved?
log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:15 pm
MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:17 pm
And do you still believe that God spoke to you, and reprimanded you for criticizing the leadership of the LDS ( speaking stout words against His servants, as you put it ), after you first read PtHG?

On November 1rst, 2013 ( on the LDS Freedom Forum ) you said God had spoken to you in that way, and explained to you why the mainstream Mormon leadership was teaching what it was teaching.

Do you still believe He spoke to you then?

And do you still believe you heard and understood Him correctly?
I am unable to visit that website due to having been banned, and as the contents of that website are under copyright by Brian Meacham, you cannot legally reproduce them here. I will not accept a paraphrase of my words from you, given your demonstrated penchant for poor reading and lies.

Therefore all I can say is whatever I myself wrote at the time represented my true and honest belief at that time.
https://remnantofjacobforum.com/view ... 7&start=20

In other words, you don't believe me, and you're judging me to be either a liar, or a poor reader.

But then your own words judge you, because you've said that Christ's law forbids us to judge anyone, and that not believing something you've been told, without knowing it to be false, proves an individual to be without charity ( and therefore without eternal life. )

Since I was there reading along the night you posted that reply to Ausie, read what you said at the time, re-read what you posted that night today, and know I'm neither lying or misunderstanding what you said to him, I know you can't possibly know me to be either lying or mistaken.

As anyone who visits the link to what you posted that night can clearly see, and as I believe you would clearly see yourself if you just clicked on the link ( unless you're claiming that having been banned from LDSFF not only prevents you from posting there, but also prevents you from even reading posts? )

Therefore, if Augustine is wrong here, and you're right, you stand self condemned.
log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:08 pm
In other words, Augustine, a paid minister, said something you like, by giving you a possible way around what Paul said about charity, which you don't like.

Good luck with that.
And the fact that Augustine was a paid minister is still an argumentum ad hominem.
Argumentum ad hominem (from the Latin, "to the man") is an informal logical fallacy that occurs when someone attempts to refute an argument by attacking the claim-maker, rather than engaging in an argument or factual refutation of the claim.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_hominem
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:49 pm

I know you to be a liar, to be unable to comprehend what you read, and to relay text inaccurately, including the Bible. It's been demonstrated publicly and privately.

And I say this for the benefit of others, and not you.

Augustine was a paid minister, whose income depended on the popularity of his teachings. Paul spoke the truth, and this truth is unpopular, as evidenced by Michael's distaste for it.

Augustine purported to give men a way to deny Paul's words while appearing unto men to be believers, as evidenced by Michael's preference for Augustine's teachings in opposition to the truth spoken by Paul.

That's how Augustine made his money. That's how priestcraft works.

You cannot serve God and mammon.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:57 pm

But you can't know me to have relayed this text inaccurately ( or to be lying about it. )

As anyone can plainly see.
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:58 pm

I cannot verify it and do not care.

You'll find we'd get along a lot better if you'd quit lying to me. It's not like I have ever persecuted you by demanding of you "thousands of dollars, or whatever you can spare," or even ever a single cent or anything at all, is it?



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:02 pm

log wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:58 pm
I cannot verify it...
So you are saying that being banned from Ldsff not only prevents you from posting there, but even from reading posts?

( And I'm not lying about anything. )
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:05 pm

Don't bother protesting your honesty to me. It's on display in the other threads.

And yes, being asked never to return to a website legally if not practically prevents anyone who obeys US law as currently construed by the courts from ever returning to that website.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:12 pm

That post is on a public forum, and nothing in U.S. Law prevents you from reading what's posted on that forum.

And if you're interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:7 is correct, you shouldn't have to re-read what you posted there, you should just take my word for it, because if you don't believe me, you don't love me.

And once again, anyone who visits that link will know that I'm not lying, so you can't possibly be telling the the truth if you say that you know that I am.

And btw: would you believe me if I told you that I got an a + in constitutional law?



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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:16 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:12 pm
That post is on a public forum, and nothing in U.S. Law prevents you from reading what's posted on that forum.
I would be exceedingly ill-advised to take your word for what I know to be false, as that statement, like so many others of yours, is.
And if you're interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:7 is correct, you shouldn't have to re-read what you posted there, you should just take my word for it, because if you don't believe me, you don't love me.
I know you to be a liar, as you have demonstrated both publicly and privately. I know you have poor reading comprehension. I know you constantly claim to know what you do not know. I know you feign belief in what you do not believe. I will not, therefore, accept a paraphrase from you, and you cannot legally repost that material elsewhere.
And once again, anyone who visits that link will know that I'm not lying, so you can't possibly be telling the the truth if you say that you know that I am.
How lucky for me I didn't take a position.



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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:29 pm

How lucky for me I didn't take a position.
But you did take a position.

You said you will not accept what you called my paraphrase of what you posted on Nov. 1, 2013, which means you don't believe you said what I said you said to Ausie that night, which means you believe I'm lying to you about what you said then, which you can't possibly know because I'm not lying.

And if your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:7 is true, that means you don't love me.

And ( again, if your interpretation is true ) that means you don't have eternal life abiding in you.
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:33 pm

MichaelB wrote:
Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:29 pm
How lucky for me I didn't take a position.
But you did take a position.

You said you can't accept what you called my paraphrase of what you posted on Nov. 1, 2013
And you lie again.
which means you don't believe you said what I said you said to Ausie that night, which means you believe I'm lying to you about what you said then, which you can't possibly know because I'm not lying.

And if your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:7 is true, that means you don't love me.

And that means you don't have eternal life abiding in you.
I know you to be an unrepentant liar, up to and including the comment you made previous to this one. I know you to be a regular misreader - at best - of texts, including my own. Therefore - note well the verb - I will not accept a paraphrase from you.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:35 pm

And "I will not accept" means that you will not believe, does it not?
Last edited by MichaelB on Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.



log
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:35 pm

Ask the dictionary.

I know you to be a liar. An unrepentant one, at that.



MichaelB
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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by MichaelB » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:41 pm

If you want, I'll go back and change "can't" to "will not."

But either way, you are saying that you don't believe I'm accurately reporting what you said on Nov. 1, 2013, aren't you?

And since I am reporting it accurately, you can't know that, right?

So does that mean you don't love me?
Last edited by MichaelB on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:34 am, edited 3 times in total.



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Re: The First Test Is Merely to Be Believing

Post by log » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:43 pm

You have physical power to paraphrase me howsoever you wish. Your paraphrasing does not alter what I originally said and does not substitute for it.



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