Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

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An open discussion forum for those who have assented to the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer to write and / or adopt by mutual agreement a statement of principles as a guide and standard.
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Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:52 pm

As used herein, “G&S” means “Guide and Standard,” referring to the statement of principles the Lord has in the covenant document commanded the covenant participants to write, and has also commanded the covenant participants to adopt by mutual agreement as a guide and standard. Also, “KJV” means the “King James Version of the Bible.” The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles is available at this link.

When the covenant participants mutually agree to a G&S, the covenant participants will thenceforth be required to follow the G&S by the covenant, thus any precepts or commandments in the G&S become part of the covenant obligations.

Additionally, the G&S is to bless, benefit, and inform those who as yet know nothing of the Lord’s work now underway. The Lord’s work now underway is to restore his original faith to the Earth, and prepare a people who may be saved at his appearing and be able to dwell with him bodily in Zion.

The Lord, in the covenant document, tells us how that is to be done: “All must come unto me or they cannot be saved. And how do men come unto me? It is by faith, repentance, and baptism, which bring the Holy Ghost to then show you all things you must know.” This is the gospel of Jesus Christ, his rock and his salvation (1 Nephi 13:36; LDS D&C 11:24; LDS D&C 39:6). Just as the Holy Ghost shows us all things we must know, the Holy Ghost also shows us all things we must do (2 Nephi 32:5). The Holy Ghost teaches us what we need to know and do to come into the presence of Jesus Christ and be saved.

We know that those who trust in men are cursed of the Lord (KJV Jeremiah 17:5; 2 Nephi 4:34; 2 Nephi 28:31). And all of us, including Denver Snuffer, are yet men. We are not the leaders, nor guides, of any man: that role is reserved for the Holy Ghost, whose guidance brings us to the Lord. Therefore, to bless, benefit, and inform those who as yet know nothing of the Lord’s work now underway, we need only give them sufficient instruction to obtain the Holy Ghost. That instruction is faith, repentance, and baptism, which bring the Holy Ghost to guide us. That is the gospel of Jesus Christ, and is his rock. The gospel is where our obligation to teach ends. Going beyond the gospel in our teaching without being commanded is for us to usurp the role reserved for the Holy Ghost. This is why the church of God in Nephite times taught nothing but repentance and faith in God (Mosiah 25:22).

The covenant instructs:

“Teach your children to honor me.”

“Seek to recover the lost sheep remnant of this land and of Israel and no longer forsake them. Bring them unto me and teach them of my ways, to walk in them.”

“Cry peace. Proclaim my words. Invite those who will repent to be baptized and forgiven, and they shall obtain my Spirit to guide them.”

It is to fulfill all these things that I have put forth the G&S proposal now entitled The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles, which consists of 3 Nephi 11:30-40 and KJV Luke 6:20-49, with two introductory sentences. Directives specific to the disciples are omitted.

We teach our children to honor the Lord when we teach our children to keep his law and commandments as contained in the Sermon. Because Israel is all who love the Lord and keep his commandments, and no one else (LDS D&C 29:12), we gather the lost sheep remnant and scattered Israel by proclaiming Christ’s gospel, his rock and his salvation, and inviting those who believe to repent and be baptized that they may receive the Holy Ghost, which will tell them all things they should know and do. We cry peace when we teach his doctrine, his law, and his commandments, the keeping of which bring peace.

3 Nephi 11:30-40 is used instead of its Restoration Edition equivalent because The Rock of Jesus Christ is for outreach to the world as well as a teaching tool and reminder to us all of what really matters: the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is his rock and his salvation. The LDS edition of the Book of Mormon is commonly available for free, whereas Restoration Edition scriptures are not complete as of this writing. Despite differences in punctuation, the meaning is unchanged.

Verse 30 cries peace. As times grow more troubled, the teaching that men should not be stirred up in anger one towards another anymore will seem more and more appealing to those who desire peace.

Directives to the disciples concerning baptism and their own disputations are avoided.

There is no unambiguous universal commandment to be baptized found within the pages of the Bible. The doctrine of Christ as found in the Book of Mormon supplies this universal requirement, along with the promise of the Father’s record or testimony of the Son by fire and by the Holy Ghost.

With respect to KJV Luke 6:20-49, the differences between the Restoration Edition and the KJV are not substantial. Using the KJV allows for a broader approach to Christians who are not from the Mormon traditions.

Repentance consists of turning aside from the ways of the world and freely conforming one’s behavior and thoughts to the law and commandments of Jesus Christ as contained in the Sermon on the Mount. Performing the deeds commanded in the Sermon are the fruits of repentance (see, for example, John’s preaching in RE Luke 3:3-4). The law and the commandments contained in the Sermon are the ways of the Lord and the path that all men are to walk in or else abide without salvation. Perfecting our execution of his law and commandments brings us to be just like Jesus Christ, which constitutes salvation (KJV Luke 6:40; Lectures on Faith 7:8, 14).

The Lukan Sermon is preferred over the Nephite and Matthean versions for the purpose of outreach to the world for four reasons.
  1. It’s short. People generally don’t like to read much anymore.
  2. It’s available to anyone who has a Bible, and every translation of it that I have seen reads substantially the same. We can afford to be accepting of other translations.
  3. It contains most of the controversial commandments such as: give to every man that asks you, yield without a fight when sued, lend to all comers, don’t ask for your possessions back from whoever takes them, &c.
  4. It omits commandments specifically given to the disciples, such as “take ye no thought for the morrow” and “take no thought for your life.”
If men will believe even as much as the Lukan Sermon and freely put it into practice, the rest will come. As the Lord says in the covenant document, “Do my works and you will know my doctrine; for you will uncover hidden mysteries by obedience to these things that can be uncovered in no other way. This is the way I will restore knowledge to my people.” This is the place to start.

The obligation to receive the Restoration Edition scriptures as a standard is upon us who have agreed to this obligation by covenant, and covenant obligations are not binding upon those who have not entered into the covenant. As we are trying to save men by our labors, it helps to use the scriptures of the people we are talking to so we can give them one less thing to object to when presenting the rock of Jesus Christ that they may repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost, which will then show them all that they must know and do. Men may repent and be baptized and receive the Holy Ghost and not enter into the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer; that is between them and the Lord, whom they have taken for their guide. It is not for us to usurp the role of the Holy Ghost.

The Rock of Jesus Christ features none of the language from the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer for reasons which include the following:
  1. The covenant offered through Denver Snuffer is not part of the gospel, or the doctrine, of Jesus Christ. Therefore this covenant is not necessary to receive the Holy Ghost, which teaches men all that they should know and do.
  2. There is no authority found nor commandment given within the covenant document for any to proselytize others into the covenant; therefore, attempts to proselytize into the covenant are not done by any authority or commandment within the covenant itself.
  3. To attempt to proselytize others into the covenant without commandment would be for us to usurp the role of the Holy Ghost.
Therefore, with respect to the G&S:

Without a direct commandment by the Lord, I will neither proselytize any man into the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer nor impose the covenant obligations upon non-participants. I will preach the Lord and his gospel instead that men may believe, repent, be baptized, and receive the Holy Ghost which will teach them all that they should know and do.

Without a direct commandment by the Lord, I will not hold Denver Snuffer up to the world as an inspired teacher to be relied upon and thus cause men to trust in him rather than the Holy Ghost and be cursed by the Lord, and bring their blood upon me. I will preach the Lord and his gospel instead that men may be cleansed and healed through repentance and faith in the name of Jesus, that I may be made clean from the blood and sins of this generation and my garments may be found spotless at the last day. Therefore, I omit the words and teachings of Denver Snuffer, and uphold the words of Jesus Christ, for he is the prophet which all must hear or else be cut off from among the people (LDS D&C 133:63).

Without a direct commandment by the Lord, I will not teach tithing, for we are not under the law of tithing, which was commanded of the LDS Church (LDS D&C 119). I will teach the Lord’s commandments concerning the distribution of our substance as found in the Sermon on the Mount instead of seeming to give men an alternative to the commandments of the Lord, thus bringing their blood upon me.

Without a direct commandment by the Lord, I will not say anything about how the fellowships are to govern themselves. I will instead preach the Lord and his gospel, that each member of each fellowship may govern themselves according to the Holy Ghost, which teaches them all that they should know and do.

Without a direct commandment by the Lord, I will not speak of priesthood, ordination, rites, or ordinances, thus enabling pretenders who seek for power and authority, but I will instead preach the Lord and his gospel that men may, through their belief in his words and their repentance from all their sins and the exercise of exceeding faith, become the Lord’s priests and be sent to minister and teach in spirit and in truth and in power, receiving their instructions directly from him instead of men.

Because the G&S must be adopted by mutual agreement, each of us is individually responsible for whatever we agree to adopt as though we individually had both written it and sent it out to the world ourselves. The gospel of Jesus Christ as contained in The Rock of Jesus Christ, or its functional equivalent, is what I am willing both to follow and to send out under my own name to the world to bless, benefit, and inform them.

We are to be restoring the original faith of Christ, and preparing a people to survive the coming of the Lord in the glory of his Father, to dwell with him and the powers of heaven in Zion. Therefore let us preach to the world the gospel of Jesus Christ, his rock and his salvation, lest we commit the same errors as our fathers.

Jared Livesey

The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles
We accept, practice, and teach the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ, as contained in the Book of Mormon, which is this:
Behold, this is not my doctrine: to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine: that such things should be done away.
Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
We accept, practice, and teach the law and commandments of our Lord Jesus Christ, known as The Sermon on the Mount, a short version of which is this:
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.



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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:21 pm

Someone asked me a lot of questions about the above post, so I responded here: https://logscabin.blogspot.com/2017/11/ ... -upon.html



James
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by James » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:58 pm

I support this G&S and will follow it's pecepts. That doesn't mean I can't support other proposals, though, which I do.



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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:14 pm

That's true.



Judy M
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by Judy M » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:07 am

Hi Log,

I am from a one family fellowship that has only in the last year begun to meet up with others in the movement. I have not felt like I had much to offer for the guide and standard and missed most of the early efforts, but I have been observing much of the Guide and Standard "work" from afar since August. I have been praying and fasting mostly... crying a fair amount too. I’ve been feeling for awhile to begin a conversation with you and feel remorse that I didn’t begin sooner. I was led to Alma 38 today and the prayer in verse 14 is mine, “...O Lord, forgive my unworthiness, and remember my brethren in mercy...”

I have agreed with much of your reasons and arguments. I recognize your courage and your dedication to truth. My husband was essentially shunned from the LDS church, for his courage and dedication to truth, so my heart is soft towards you. I fully agree that the Doctrine of Christ and the Sermon on the Mount need to be in the guiding principles and that we should not idolize any man, but rather point people to Christ and to take the Holy Ghost for their guide. I am not fully convinced that we can not add other scriptures or words of teachers meeting the conditions in Mosiah 23:14 (as you quoted recently in a comment). I do see some of the things you warn about occurring in the group. I was particularly saddened and felt the withdrawal of the spirit as I read the exchange in the G&S blog comments last Wednesday night. I’ve had a hard time keeping up with it since.

You have spent a lot of time explaining to those who know of the “work” why you feel it necessary to only include the Doctrine of Christ and the Sermon on the Mount and that people need to take the Holy Ghost for their guide. To me, the very fact that you have needed to write so much shows the need for more explanation, especially for those the guiding principles are meant to “bless, benefit and inform”, or as it says in the A&C, pg. 8 “others who know nothing, as yet, of my work now underway...”

For example, the role of the Holy Ghost mentioned in 3 Nephi 11 is that of bearing record of Jesus and the Father. The word “guide” is not mentioned, nor many of the other important roles of the Holy Ghost. It seems to me that in the very least a few of Nephi’s words from 2 Nephi 32 and 31 would be very helpful in blessing, benefiting and informing “others”, especially since you expect them to take the Holy Ghost for their guide in all other things. Yesterday, I was led to read Moroni 8: 25-26, it was needed by me. I was reminded that “meekness and lowliness of heart” are requirements of the visitation of the Holy Ghost, that the Holy Ghost fills with hope and love, which endure by diligence unto prayer, which in turn tied it to the teachings of Mormon in Moroni 7 on hope and charity.

In that chapter, Mormon also teaches about laying hold on every good thing. In verses 20-25 he teaches that God sends angels to minister unto the children of men and God declares to prophets by his own mouth about Christ. In verse 16 he gives us this key: “...for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.”

If I hear the Holy Ghost and truth through one who has seen angels and heard God’s voice by his own mouth and it persuades me to believe in Christ, I want to share that with others. The Holy Ghost then has something to witness of. But there is that key qualifier, their words point to Christ. In all I have read and experienced, Denver has fulfilled that. It was the Holy Ghost that led me to his teachings in answer to my questions and prayers.

Those teachings have enlightened my mind and point me to Christ. I know they have pointed you too. Did his teachings given through the spirit enlighten your understanding of the importance of rebaptism? The doctrine of Christ? Of God’s desire for you to enter into his presence in this life? Was it his teachings and the promptings of the Holy Ghost which encouraged you to take part in this assignment in the first place?

Lori Taylor recently quoted Denver from the Second Comforter in a blog comment to you:

"The Gospel requires us to proceed carefully, to be sure. We are required to find the voice of the Spirit for ourselves. Every Saint must become, in their own right, a prophet or prophetess. Not to lead others, but themselves (Numbers 11:29). For each must choose for him or herself to find and follow the Master’s voice in his or her life. The only sure rock upon which salvation remains to be found is that same rock of revelation which Christ assured Peter was secure to trust. If you follow [Insert leader] President Hinckley solely because he is the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are following a man. But if you follow President Hinckley because you hear the Master’s voice in his counsel and teaching, then you are following the Lord, and not a man. There is a great difference between the two. One honors the Lord and leads to exaltation. The other misses the mark and makes such followers Telestial (D&C 76: 98-101). This distinction is pivotal to salvation itself. It is not merely rhetorical, but of such substance if you fail to understand it you fail in the test of mortality itself. This is what we signed up for in coming to mortality. We accepted this challenge and expected it. Now it confronts us. So the test is afoot and must be taken with caution and humility."

I don’t recall your response. I believe those words, the test is not only to receive the Holy Ghost when reading the scriptures, but to hear the Master’s voice in those he sends. I have often wondered whether I would have listened to enoch, Noah, Lehi, Alma, Ammon, John the Baptist, Jesus or Joseph. Could I have discerned the the Holy Ghost confirming their teachings? Would I have excluded them because I thought they were not Christ’s actual words because they were not in the scriptures at hand?

To me, a great part of the Lord’s “work now underway” is surrounding Denver and what the Lord is teaching him and us through him. To disallow his words is like disallowing what God is doing now... talking to men again, visiting men again, men coming to KNOW God. We have had the Book of Mormon going on 200 years, the Sermon on the Mount going on 2000 years, it would be nice to add to our guide and standard what He is saying today. I think it is okay with God, in fact, I feel that he desires it. Not to put Denver up as an idol, but to point us to Christ.

As a guide or check, I feel it is also important to include scriptures like D&C 121 that teach us how to work together and the many scriptures you have mentioned that warn against trusting in man. I would also like to see scriptures like Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 11:8 or D&C 84:98, reminding us of our end goal, the prophesy we hope to be part of, where all will know the Lord. I feel that the fellowships are to help us in coming to know God as we teach, testify, love and support one another. I pray for the day we shall all know Him.

I pray that we each may become one with God and his mind and will, so that we can then become one with each other. May God bless you.



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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:33 am

Judy,

It's difficult to come to mutual understanding and agreement if we don't share a common foundation.

If you do not mind, I'd like to know if you agree that the Holy Ghost shows us all things we should know (A&C p.3), and if you agree that the Holy Ghost shows us all things we should do (2 Nephi 32:5).

Do you agree that the Holy Ghost shows us all things we should know and all things we should do?

Jared Livesey



Judy M
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by Judy M » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:09 pm

Hi Log,

Thank you for responding. I do agree with both of those statements... that the Holy Ghost shows us all things we should know (A&C p.3), and that the Holy Ghost shows us all things we should do (2 Nephi 32:5).

I also believe 2 Nephi 32:3 where it says, “Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.”

My understanding is that one can receive the words of Christ confirmed by the power of the Holy Ghost through scriptures and angels, as well as from Christ himself. The ways are many. I have heard Christ’s words spoken to my Spirit in undeniable ways, but one of the best ways I hear the Holy Ghost is while prayerfully reading the scriptures with sincere desire/questions.

To return to one of my points, I feel like you just demonstrated again by your question the need to use scriptures other than just the Doctrine of Christ found in 3 Nephi and the Sermon on the Mount to understand the need to take the Holy Ghost for my guide. Don’t you think adding 2 Nephi 32 to the G&S would be helpful since that aspect of the role of the Holy Ghost is not mentioned as clearly in the Doctrine of Christ or in the Sermon on the Mount?

Peace, Judy



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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:56 pm

Judy,

Let’s proceed step-by-step, if that’s allright. Now, it sounds to me like you and your husband have been taking the Holy Ghost for your guide, and have been led to things you needed to know and needed to do. Would you agree with this assessment?




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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:54 am

Then would you agree that you don't need me telling you what to do, because the Spirit is doing the job of leading you to what you need to know and what you need to do?



Judy M
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by Judy M » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:42 pm

Yes, I don't want you to tell me what to do, nor do I want you as my teacher.



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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:59 pm

And you would not like it if someone insisted you had to listen to them, or anyone else, correct?



Judy M
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by Judy M » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:20 pm

Sure. Forgive me for that last post. I've been feeling like a fly in a spider's web instead of a friend having a discussion... as though you have assumed the role of teacher and guide... I will answer your questions, but you will not answer mine without a long exercise in logic, which is okay I guess. I'm just feeling a bit reluctant.



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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:33 pm

Judy,

I take no offense.

If we walk together, agreeing at each step, then we will end up at the same destination. We can find out very easily where we have not agreed, and retrace our steps, and see if we can come to agreement on something more fundamental that we maybe missed before, and thus proceed to the end.

If we do not, but instead begin a game of challenge / response, then there is the very real possibility of holes, gaps in understanding or agreement, hidden assumptions, and so on, that will preclude agreement.

There's no trap here. I'm trying to explain why the answer is what it is, and how you can know this from your own experience.

So, if you are taking the Holy Ghost for your guide, and the Spirit is leading you to all that you must know and all that you must do, as it seems to have been doing, then do you want interference from other mortals on your path of learning by the Spirit?



Judy M
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by Judy M » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:03 pm

Thank you for your patience and explanations.

My quick response to your question is no. And yet, I believe that the Spirit has led me to other mortals to teach me certain things, answer questions, help illustrate certain teachings and help me come to greater understanding. The spirit has also been able to teach me from my experiences with those who have used compulsion/unrighteous dominion, etc. Some of those experiences have become some of my greatest lessons, though at the time I would not have felt that way.



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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:15 pm

Exactly - the Spirit is leading you and you don't want even well-meaning people to interpose themselves between you and the Spirit, and you are by your walk in the Spirit learning good from evil.

So, here's the question - if we want to be led by the Spirit, and we don't want even well-meaning people to interpose themselves between us and the Spirit, then hadn't we ought merely to give people only enough information to obtain the Spirit so that they may in their turn have the opportunity to be led by the Spirit without interference from us?



Judy M
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by Judy M » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:25 pm

That is definitely agreeable, the question then of course is what is enough information.



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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:49 pm

Well, here we go back to the doctrine of Christ - which is an executive summary of the gospel.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
So, you must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in his name, or you can in no circumstances be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, which is the witness of the Father of the Son.

The sermon defines repentance, which is to turn away from all our ways and walk in his ways by keeping his commandments as found in the Sermon. Therefore, it is necessary to believe the Sermon - as literalistically as a little child would - and be baptized by one of his sent servants.

Christ says this:
Ether 4:12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.
When we believe someone, we believe them literally (unless or until they flag their speech as nonliteral), just as a child would.

So, if a person will believe the Sermon as literally as a child, repent of all their sins as taught in the Sermon, and be baptized by one of Christ's sent servants, they will receive the visitation of fire and of the Holy Ghost and receive a remission of their sins.

That's why the doctrine and the Sermon suffice - for those that believe the words. More wouldn't help, and less won't do it.



log
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by log » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:39 am

And if we believe it... we do it.

Because he was doing it (and teaching it) Peter received the witness of the Father that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. That's the doctrine of Christ. This testimony from the Father, the visitation with fire and with the Holy Ghost, is the rock upon which Jesus builds his church. It is by doing all things in the Sermon that we become perfected in him, built upon his gospel.

"Therefore, whoso heareth these sayings of mine and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, who built his house upon a rock— And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not, for it was founded upon a rock."



Judy M
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Re: Revised, Retitled Proposal, and Explanation

Post by Judy M » Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:48 am

Jared,
I believe you. I was going to say that I still feel that a little more explanation is needed, just as you have done with me, and yet, still not sure, but I think I need to just go think and pray on this. I've been rereading 3 Nephi 11 and the Sermon, my previous points are still not fully answered, but I know I need that baptism of fire... my time would be better spent at this moment seeking for it. I know that if we each were truly built upon the rock, the powers of heaven would be poured out among us, love would abound and Zion would not fail. Angels would want to be among us. Christ would want to be with us. We would want to be with each other. We would want to talk to each other. We would come to mutual agreement. Maybe instead of all this pushing and shoving, jarring and contending... if we all went off and repented, believed in Jesus and became as little children, Heavenly Father would visit us with the baptism of fire.
God bless you Jared, may we all receive the truth, take the Holy Spirit for our guide and not be deceived.



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