Last minute proposal

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An open discussion forum for those who have assented to the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer to write and / or adopt by mutual agreement a statement of principles as a guide and standard.
Cuefrmesp
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Last minute proposal

Post by Cuefrmesp » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:29 pm

We submitted the following to the guideandstandard.blogspot page. It should be posted tomorrow. Just wanted to post it here also to see what everyone thinks.


First of all we would like to praise the lots proposal. It has been a wonderful experience and we believe that it has brought the majority of the believers together. Without that proposal we wouldn’t be as united as we are today.
We are not trying to complicate things or diminish the momentum that is currently underway, but we would like to submit a new guide and standard. The reason for this, is that we want to make sure every person who feels the need to take part in this process feels included. It would be sad to see anyone fall away because of a guide and standard that they don’t agree with. If we exclude anyone it will be done at our own peril.

Our proposal is that the general/official guide and standard is to include only 3 things:
1.The Doctrine of Christ found in 3 Nephi 11:30-40.
2.The Gospel of Christ found in Luke 6:20-49 (KJV).
3.Each fellowship, family or individual is free to adopt an additional guide and standard as the spirit guides them. (Optional. Only if moved upon by the spirit)

We feel this approach includes the two things that every guide and standard has had in common so far. i.e. the Doctrine and Gospel of Christ. These are also the two things that we feel every covenant maker can mutually agree upon. The 3rd item lets everyone exercise their agency in how they worship. Every fellowship, family or individual is free to choose or not to choose whichever guide and standard that the spirit directs them to. Having number “3” included in the general and official guide and standard gives everyone the option to expound if they wish.

Spencer and Jasmine Brundage



Last minute Guide and Standard proposal

First
We believe in Jesus Christ and his doctrine found in 3 Nephi 11:30-40 in the Book of Mormon

Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.
Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Second
We seek to follow the admonition of Christ in the Sermon on the Mount to guide our conduct as found in Luke 6:20-49 (KJV)

And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake.
Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken
together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?
The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother’s eye.
For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Third
Each fellowship, family or individual is free to adopt an additional guide and standard as the spirit guides them. (Optional. Only if moved upon by the spirit)



log
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:19 am

Spencer, Jasmine,

Thank you for coming to converse.

May I say a word about #3?

Jared Livesey




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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:02 am

It is true that everyone is free to adopt additional material as they are led to by the Spirit, and even if they aren’t led by the Spirit.

My thought on reading #3 is that we are publicizing the idea that people might ought of themselves to look beyond the gospel and the Lord’s law and commandments. If someone is led by the Holy Ghost to adopt more, they don’t need our suggestion to do so, nor our permission, and we haven’t anything to say about it. All we could do in that case is interfere, more or less.

But if they aren’t led by the Holy Ghost (and maybe think they are when they aren’t), should we be giving them the idea that adopting additional material beyond the gospel can be desirable? After all, they haven’t obeyed even that much yet, which is why they haven’t received the Holy Ghost.

Does that make sense?

What if instead of #3 we included something like this? “As Joseph Smith said, ‘We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.’” “All men” of necessity includes us all.

Or is #3 necessary at all?



Cuefrmesp
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by Cuefrmesp » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:42 am

I agree with you. If we have the Holy Ghost we will be led in all things. My feelings are that this “assignment”to write a guide and standard is not necessarily to establish a set of principles, but it is the process of how we do it. I think if anyone who wants to be included is left behind, then we will fail. That is the reason for number three. We are not married to the wording. I just feel something needs to bridge the divide between the most popular proposal and those who dissent.

From the beginning I have only wanted the Doctrine of Christ included. People feel and think differently. I am not sure if number three is exactly the correct way to bridge that divide or not, but it will at least give people an option. We need Something to say to everyone that it is ok to think differently or to expound on your own personal principles. Even though I feel like it is completely implied.

I feel that the sermon on the mount could totally be taken out of the proposal. Because if we have the Holy Ghost we will be led in all things. But sometimes we need a little more help with clarification.

I would be open to changes and I think the Joseph Smith quote would be a great substitution to number three. Unfortunately we would need an explanation that said: this quote means you can adopt whatever guide and standard you would like. :)



log
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:55 am

Is it fair to say that with #3, your G&S proposal can be reduced to #3 alone? That is to say, with #3, your proposal can functionally be reduced to “you can adopt whatever guide and standard you would like” in its effect?



Cuefrmesp
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by Cuefrmesp » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:00 pm

Log, I completely agree that number three is not needed. I am of the opinion that if we move forward without mutual agreement, then number three of the covenant will be broken. So I am open to changing number three of this proposal to the Joseph Smith quote or similar or taking it out completely. Or we can say let the Holy Spirit be your guide. Even though it is implied. I just want to fulfill what the lord has asked.



log
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:20 pm

Spencer, I also responded on the G&S blog, but I'll put this here also so that all can follow it.

If we take it (#3) out completely, the introductory sentences for 1 and 2 also do not communicate that these are in fact our guide and standard, and our principles, but are more like suggestions.

And if we strengthen the language to the appropriate level, wherein we acknowledge that we accept, practice, and teach these things, we have The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles.

The Lord's people are defined by their keeping of all his commandments. If that's not us, we aren't his people.

Jared Livesey



Cuefrmesp
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by Cuefrmesp » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:48 pm

Jared,
I am completely open to whatever changes that makes this thing a mutual agreement by everyone. I feel that the covenant will be broken if we proceed with one person being left out. This thing is a process. Without the lots proposal we wouldn’t be to the point where people are open to going back to the simple Doctrine. People progress at different speeds. Also with out your persistency, we wouldn’t be at the point where we are. Therefore, we need to persuade people gently and lovingly. I wish they would have posted our proposal on the main page, but oh well. I feel if we can start a little discussion, people will slowly but surely realize we can only have the Doctrine. Number three is a way to give a branch to allow people to be validated and feel included. Then if we can discuss cordially, we can get to the point where what we all agree on is the Doctrine.
I am not a writer or philosopher. I hate online everything. This is not my realm of expertise. I don’t like pontificating. Anyone else is free to make this thing better or more precise. I just want to mutually agree and move forward.



log
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:53 pm

Spencer,

I put this up on your proposal on the G&S site, but I'll also put it here:

Spencer, you say: "I am of the opinion that if we move forward without mutual agreement, then number three of the covenant will be broken."

I say: I agree the covenant will be broken - by those who move forward without fulfilling the Lord's requirement. If they willfully go contrary to the covenant after warning and counsel, then they shall reap the consequences of doing so. I have publicly both counseled and warned them already.

Those who are faithful will be acceptable to the Lord: "[A]ll who abide it [the covenant], whether on this land or any other land, will be mine and I will watch over them and protect them in the day of harvest, and gather them in as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. "

We are not required to agree to error just because the majority does.

If we put forth that which curses, harms, or misinforms, we also have broken the covenant.




log
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:58 pm

Spencer, I'm not going to hold out [to others] the false impression that this is a negotiation.

The Lord commands that the G&S shall bless, benefit, and inform those who know nothing as yet concerning his work now underway.

The Lord also says, in the A&C: "The Book of Mormon was given as my covenant for this day and contains my gospel, which came forth to allow people to understand my work and then obtain my salvation."

The gospel is what allows people to understand his work. Therefore, his gospel is what shall go out, neither more nor less.

You see, if we agree to send out more or less, we take upon ourselves the consequences of having done so, which is just, since we agreed to it.

I won't agree to anything other than his gospel. I am willing to explain why, to those who will humble themselves and converse, and thus persuade, but I won't be budging from the gospel due to anything anyone has to say to me.



Jay
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by Jay » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:01 am

Hello Jared, this is Jay Ball.
Can I ask you another question. What do you mean by "a direct commandment from the Lord"? How does the Lord speak? How do you know it is from Him? How do you discern the difference between God speaking His mind to you or your own thoughts or even thoughts from the adversary?



log
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:32 am

Jay,

I mean from heaven to me, and not through any mortal, as I have already explained in response to your prior asking of that question.

The Lord speaks through the Holy Ghost, angels, and by his own voice.

As to how I know and all the rest, well, that's not transferrable knowledge. Just as we can only discuss sight and sound and taste because of common experiences, and not because words can actually transfer the experiences, so also are these things.

If you will call upon God in mighty prayer and covenant with him to be diligent in keeping his commandments and go and do the commandments of Jesus Christ as contained in the Sermon as they are written, and not cease therefrom, you will learn for yourself to discern him from others.



Mujer
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by Mujer » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:25 am

Hello all. This is Lori Taylor, just so ya know. Can anyone help me understand why this 'last minute proposal' has not shown up on the G&S blog yet? I had anticipated seeing. Is it because there really has only been one up for consideration, especially now that a vote is demanded? And how is it that among all the proposals one got pushed ahead of them all? I don't understand who/what is driving the process overall...



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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Tue Nov 28, 2017 12:55 pm

It’s up there: http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/p/ ... 12517.html

My guess is Spencer didn’t ask for it to be announced on the homepage explicitly by itself. It was included, by inference, in this post: http://guideandstandard.blogspot.com/20 ... osals.html



Mujer
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by Mujer » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:02 pm

Thank you for showing me where it was. That place is crazy busy. I feel like I've almost lost myself over there. :/



log
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:04 pm

It’s all good.



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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by log » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:45 pm

Lori,

I believe the reason one proposal has been pushed ahead of the rest is because 1. that proposal has the backing of the most powerful people in the so-called "movement," 2. it has an apparent majority, and 3. I think I remember someone saying that they want the G&S ready for publication in the scriptures by Christmas.

Since they have from the outset deemed the Lord's requirement for mutual agreement to be impossible to attain, they are willing to redefine mutual agreement to mean something other than mutual agreement in order to meet their deadline.

I have confirmed with a member of the scripture committee that the scripture committee does not believe "mutual agreement" means mutual agreement, but instead means something else.



Cuefrmesp
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Re: Last minute proposal

Post by Cuefrmesp » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:14 pm

Log and Lori,
Yeah, we were wondering why our proposal was put on the sidebar as opposed to the main page. We submitted it Wednesday night before we saw the “lots” post that same night. We were told that it would be taken care of on Thursday morning. Then in the morning there was a post saying not to bother them during the holiday. So we waited until Saturday and still didn’t see it. So I emailed them again. They then posted that little blurb that there were updates and new proposals on the sidebar. I emailed them Saturday night and asked why ours was not included on the main page. I have still not received an answer to that question.
To be fair, I did not specify which page to put it on.



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