Clarification Requested

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An open discussion forum for those who have assented to the covenant offered through Denver Snuffer to write and / or adopt by mutual agreement a statement of principles as a guide and standard.
ChrisPark
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Clarification Requested

Post by ChrisPark » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:36 am

Hi Jared. I have read all you have written about your document. I am interested in some clarification concerning the Rock of Jesus Christ. Please go through each of the quotes below and share your understanding as to how your document fits each of the requirements.

Your servant,
Chris Park

These are all of the phrases or sections from the Answer that contain the words "guide" or "standard" or both, or that are instructions directly related to the task of creating a Guide and Standard.

"[...] my answer to you concerning the scriptures is to guide you in other work to be done hereafter; for recovering the scriptures does not conclude the work to be accomplished by those who will be my people: it is but a beginning." (Answer and Covenant, p. 1)
...

"And now I will accept what you have produced and you need not labor further to recover my words, but to complete your labors as you have agreed. You have inquired about the details, including punctuation, and what I say unto one I say unto all: I have given to you my doctrine, and have also revealed teachings, commandments, precepts, and principles to guide you and it is not meet that I command you in all things—reason together and apply what I have given you and it will be enough." (Answer and Covenant, p. 6)
...

"You are not excused from writing a statement of principles that I have required at your hands. I forbade my servant David from participating, and again forbid him. But I require a statement of principles to be adopted by the mutual agreement of my people, for if you cannot do so you will be unable to accomplish other works that I will require at your hands. When you have an agreed statement of principles I require it to also be added as a guide and standard for my people to follow. Remember there are others who know nothing, as yet, of my work now underway, and therefore the guide and standard is to bless, benefit and inform them—so I command you to be wise in word and kind in deed as you write what I require of you.

Do not murmur saying, Too much has been required at our hands in too short a time. If your hearts were right it was a light thing I have asked. You hinder and delay and then you say I require too much of you and do not allow you time, when, if your hearts were right and you prepared yourselves you could have finished this work long ago. Do you indeed desire to be my people? Then accept and do as I have required." (Answer and Covenant, p. 8)
...

"In the world tares are ripening. And so I ask you, What of the wheat? Let your pride, and your envy, and your fears depart from you. I will come to my tabernacle and dwell with my people in Zion, and none will overtake it.

Cry peace. Proclaim my words. Invite those who will repent to be baptized and forgiven, and they shall obtain my Spirit to guide them. The time is short and I come quickly, therefore open your mouths and warn others to flee the wrath which is to come as men in anger destroy one another. The wicked shall destroy the wicked, and I will hold the peacemakers in the palm of my hand and none can take them from me.

Be comforted, be of good cheer, rejoice, and look up, for I am with you who remember me,
and all those who watch for me, always, even unto the end. Amen." (Answer and Covenant, p. 10-11)
...

"First: Do you believe all the words of the Lord which have been read to you this day, and know them to be true and from the Lord Jesus Christ who has condescended to provide them to you, and do you covenant with Him to cease to do evil and to seek to continually do good?

Second: Do you have faith in these things and receive the scriptures approved by the Lord as a standard to govern you in your daily walk in life, to accept the obligations established by the Book of Mormon as a covenant and to use the scriptures to correct yourselves and to guide your words, thoughts and deeds?

Third: Do you agree to assist all others who covenant to likewise accept this standard to govern their lives to keep the Lord’s will, to succor those who stand in need, to lighten the burdens of your brothers and sisters whenever you are able, and to help care for the poor among you?

Fourth: And do you covenant to seek to become of one heart with those who seek the Lord to establish His righteousness?" (Answer and Covenant, p. 11)
...

"The time is now far spent, therefore labor with me and do not forsake my covenant to perform it; study my words and let them be the standard for your faith and I will add thereto many treasures. Love one another and you will be mine, and I will preserve you, and raise you up, and abide with you for ever.

AMEN." (Answer and Covenant, p. 12)



log
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:39 am

Chris,

I need you to ask specific questions. If you feel the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ fails to meet a qualification, please specify which qualification it fails to meet in your eyes and how you believe it fails to meet that qualification.

And, if you would, align your words with your heart, that we may know where we each stand, without affectation or pretense.

Let me also ask from the outset: do you have a sincere objection to receiving the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ for your written guide and standard?

Thanks.

Jared L.



ChrisPark
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by ChrisPark » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:55 am

Never mind. I'm poor at communicating and don't think I will be able to ask in a way that you will understand. I will continue to try to understand through what you've already written.

Thanks for your quick response.

Chris



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:16 pm

Chris,

I'm all for explaining in response to specific questions.

If you will simply ask outright what you actually want to ask, being specific and without disguising your purposes, then I may be able to help satisfy your inquiry. But the inquiry has to concern something I actually wrote, not what you may think I mean.

Jared L.



ChrisPark
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by ChrisPark » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:21 pm

Ok. I'll consider that.

Chris



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:40 pm

For example, instead of presenting me with a lot of the A&C, go through it point by point and show how you feel something specific represents a requirement the G&S must meet that the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ does not meet, if indeed you feel that way.

Then I can help clarify things. Or, maybe I should go through the A&C and show how the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ meets every stated requirement for the G&S, and then some more obligations as well in the A&C. That, too, is a thought.

Starting here:
The Book of Mormon was given as my covenant for this day and contains my gospel, which came forth to allow people to understand my work and then obtain my salvation.
Thus we see that the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ permits people to understand his work. One of the three requirements for the G&S is to inform those who as yet know nothing about the Lord's work now underway concerning it. Teaching the gospel, then, fulfills this requirement.

And can we agree salvation is the greatest blessing that can be afforded one? And that, too, is the purpose of teaching the gospel.

And how better can we benefit others than by teaching them the gospel, whereby they may understand the Lord's work and be saved?

Jared



Tyler Kelly
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by Tyler Kelly » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:02 pm

Jared,

Can you explain to me why we wouldnt explain priesthood, sacrament, etc... like all the other G&S do? Wouldnt those things be helpful in understanding how fellowships work etc...?



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:09 pm

Tyler,

Do you believe the Holy Ghost tells men all that they should do, and all that they should know, and that by the power of the Holy Ghost we may know the truth of all things?

Jared



BrentL
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by BrentL » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:52 pm

Jared,

from what I have read in varrious places, I would paraphrase your position as "my way or the highway". Is this correct? (I.E. "I dissent from ANYTHING other than the Rock of Christ")


"Fools!" said I, "you do not know!"
"Silence like a cancer grows"

log
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:37 pm

Brent,

If it were my way, then that would be a fair way to summarize it. Since The Rock of Jesus Christ is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is not my way, but the Lord's way.

Therefore, an accurate summary would be "The Lord's way or no way."

Jared L.



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by BrentL » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:46 pm

fair enough.


"Fools!" said I, "you do not know!"
"Silence like a cancer grows"

log
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:02 pm

The shortest scriptural reason for this is found in 3 Nephi 27. We are not presently arguing about the name by which the church shall be called, but upon what it shall be built.
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;

10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel[.]
Therefore if our church be not built upon his gospel, but instead be built upon the works of men, or of the devil, it shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.

Not the fate I signed up for. And I have the same power any of us has to prevent it, by dissenting from building upon foundations (guides and standards and principles) which are of men, or of the devil.



Mujer
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by Mujer » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:46 pm

Jared, it looks like people are...trying, right? Is it possible that you have placed others in the same painful place I (not wanting to imply I speak for anyone else) had been in regarding not accepting the most recent version of the G&S where it was said such a one is rejecting the words of Christ? How can anyone find an argument against or disagreement with what you are stating in your proposal? It's HIM. His words. Have you created a catch-22 of sorts, not unlike the one I felt trapped by? Damned if I do, damned if I don't? Why should anyone want to discuss? What is there to talk about? Is it possible the devil is in the details anywhere? And have you shared the bit about an authorized servant sharing and teaching the ordinances anywhere? I remember you explaining that on the Come Serve site. Maybe others have not heard that and would find it worth discussing?

And, just for my own clarification, when was it that you formulated your proposal? There is no date attached to The Rock of Jesus Christ so I am wondering where it fits into the timeline with all the others. Was there a particular reason that led you to create it? Thanks.



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:00 pm

Lori,

I honestly don't know what there is to talk about, which is why I invite questions so I can explain whatever it is people want explained. If nobody wants to discuss, then there's no discussion.

As for when I formulated it, it was sometime after October 4, and probably before October 28 (see here: http://logscabin.blogspot.com/2017/10/i ... agree.html).

The reason I created it is because virtually every other proposal was and is an establishment of what I pejoratively call "LDS 2.0," and does not represent the original faith of Jesus Christ, but perpetuates the Gentile errors of our fathers.

The Rock of Jesus Christ: A Statement of Our Principles represents the original faith of Christ.



Mujer
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by Mujer » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:21 pm

Thank you, Jared. Maybe people just need to understand how what you propose is enough? It is dramatically different from the original. We are so used to telling others what to do and being told ourselves, it is hard to see that scriptures can be enough, I guess. But I honestly do not know. I like explanations and worry to do something incorrectly or wrongly. But is that not how we all learn, from mistakes?

And I think people are wanting help understanding how The Rock of Jesus Christ meets the command to be "wise in word and kind in deed." Do you have any thoughts on that? Is it simply a matter of each person studying the Sermon and the words of Christ, then seeking to apply them in life literally? Have we been guilty of giving lip-service to Christ's law over studying how to live it? The impression I had while reading and considering the lots' version, where I saw the Sermon and Christ's law mentioned briefly, was that everything was more important since those things were given paragraphs.

And do you believe we have a responsibility to protect the integrity of the ordinances? I don't know that there is a sure-fire way to do that because somebody is going to either be tempted or taught incorrectly, and then a baby gets baptized or something.

And does your proposal fulfill the statement "You are not excused from writing a statement of principles that I have required at your hands"? Is it your understanding that quoting scriptures is what Christ meant by "writing?"

Is it your understanding that the G&S is to "Invite those who will repent to be baptized and forgiven, and they shall obtain my Spirit to guide them"? And how does yours do that?

How does what you propose fulfill this: "Remember there are others who know nothing, as yet, of my work now underway, and therefore the guide and standard is to bless, benefit and inform them"? How will they be blessed? How will they be benefited? How will they be informed? Speaking in terms of learning to live the gospel and possibly creating/becoming part of a fellowship?

As for helping all to receive the Holy Ghost, is there a need to teach what that is and what the experience of being taught and led by the Holy Ghost is like? What if someone does not know the difference between Holy Ghost, self, and adversarial spirit voices? Need we be mindful of the learning curve we have all experienced as we grow in maturity of the gospel?

And can you point to any time or experience in your life when you did not need more than the Holy Ghost? Have you ever needed to read a book written by another person to understand something? Have you not ever benefited by hearing a message from someone? Now, it was the Spirit that prompted you to get that book or listen to that podcast/talk/etc.? And the Holy Ghost expanded your learning?

What are your thoughts about including the G&S, let's assume your version, in the T&C where will also be some teachings from Denver, Joseph Smith, and at least one other man? Is it not an acceptance of those things going out to the world by association? So why not round out the picture and put some beneficial and worthwhile "pearls of wisdom" in the G&S?

Can you put yourself in the place of someone who does not know anything about all you have been fortunate to learn over the last few years about Christ and the Restoration of His Gospel, and say definitively that what you propose is sufficient? Are you able to think of anything that you might wish you had been told?

I get your perspective and believe there are important items in your answers to consider. I'm just tossing out some questions/thoughts it sounds like others have had.



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:30 pm

Lori,

Do you believe the Holy Ghost teaches men all that they should know, and all that they should do, and that by the power of the Holy Ghost we may know the truth of all things?

Jared



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:57 pm

To give the whole argument away:

The Holy Ghost teaches men all things that they must know and do.
Therefore, men have nothing to teach one who has taken the Holy Ghost for their guide, as John also pointed out (1 John 2:20, 27).
And if men have not taken the Holy Ghost for their guide, the only way to bless, benefit, and inform them, since they know nothing of the Lord's work, is to tell them how to obtain the Holy Ghost.
Men obtain the Holy Ghost by repentance, faith, and baptism by one of Christ's sent servants, which brings the visitation of fire and of the Holy Ghost, which teaches men all that they must know and do. This is the gospel and the doctrine of Christ.
The law and commandments of Christ, the Sermon on the Mount, define repentance.
Men must believe the Sermon as literally as a small child would understand it or else they do not believe Christ.
By means of the Holy Ghost God teaches men about his work and leads them to salvation.
Teaching more than these things without commandment from God is to usurp the role of the Holy Ghost.
To teach less than these things is insufficient to bless, benefit, and inform them of the Lord's work - indeed, it is to keep them in thrall to you.

It was to explain these things that I wrote "The Simplified Gospel."
The Simplified Gospel

The ways humanity tries to bring about justice, peace, and unity do not and cannot work. History and current events are proof that competing against, controlling, or manipulating others always results in disunity, conflict, injustice, and inequality. Yet competition, force, and manipulation are how humanity has chosen to govern itself. Jesus offers us the sole alternative to humanity’s self-destructive ways: love.

The law of God is this: every last thing you wish others would do to you, do those exact same things to them. This law defines the behavior of perfect love, which is called “charity.” God’s law is the true moral and ethical standard of all humankind, being written into every conscience, and it is the definition of “good.” Behavior that falls short of this law is not good and produces both guilt and conflict with others.

The purpose of the law of God is to end conflict between people. Those who willingly keep His law may joyfully and peacefully live together as equals, both here and now, and forever in the eternal world. The commandments that Jesus gave us in the Sermon on the Mount are how we are to obey the law of God through our works and end our conflicts with others.

Love, the feeling which makes us want to do what the law of God commands, is given to us by God. Charity is Jesus’s nature, meaning He feels perfect love towards everyone. Charity is the nature of all those who inherit God’s kingdom with Jesus. Jesus’s commandments in the Sermon on the Mount are the actions which those who have charity do by nature.

“Sin” is intent or action which falls short of the law of God, such as giving in to lust and doing to others what we do not wish others would do to us. “Repent” means to change one’s mind, to reconsider, or to relent, all of which implies a willing change in one’s behavior.

Any who will believe Jesus’s words in the Sermon on the Mount as literally as small children believe their parents’ words, and repent of all their sins, and be baptized by one of His sent servants, shall be visited by God with fire and with the Holy Ghost and shall receive a remission of their sins.

The visitation of the Holy Ghost changes our feelings so that we understand Jesus’s love and want to only do good. Then we are to do what Jesus commands until the end of our lives. We trust in Jesus to guide and comfort us in our trials and afflictions as we learn who and what He is by the things we suffer in obedience to His teachings. Just as one does not learn a new skill without practice, nobody can understand nor master the discipline of perfect love without doing its works. Doing the works Jesus commanded until we fully understand Him and freely agree to become what He is and to receive His nature from Him permanently as a gift by His grace so that we love everyone perfectly just like He does is what it means to be a disciple of Jesus.

If you keep the commandments of Jesus Christ, you are His church (Matthew 7:24-25, 16:18; Luke 6:47-48), you are His disciple (John 8:31-32), you are His friend (John 15:14), and you are His family (Luke 8:19-21).
That's the faith of Christ.
Last edited by log on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:09 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:22 am

A question which has occurred to me frequently is "why would any disciple of Jesus Christ choose any other written guide and standard than the Lord's doctrine, law, and commandments?"

I have not yet heard a reason. It was good enough for the Nephites and the Jews, how is it not good enough for us Gentiles?
4 Nephi 1:12-13
12 And they did not walk any more after the performances and ordinances of the law of Moses; but they did walk after the commandments which they had received from their Lord and their God, continuing in fasting and prayer, and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.

13 And it came to pass that there was no contention among all the people, in all the land; but there were mighty miracles wrought among the disciples of Jesus.
Remember, remember:
3 Nephi 27
8 And how be it my church save it be called in my name? For if a church be called in Moses’ name then it be Moses’ church; or if it be called in the name of a man then it be the church of a man; but if it be called in my name then it is my church, if it so be that they are built upon my gospel.

9 Verily I say unto you, that ye are built upon my gospel; therefore ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;

10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it.

11 But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men, or upon the works of the devil, verily I say unto you they have joy in their works for a season, and by and by the end cometh, and they are hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence there is no return.

12 For their works do follow them, for it is because of their works that they are hewn down; therefore remember the things that I have told you.

13 Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel[.]
The guide and standard is our foundation, our principles: that which defines us as a whole. It must be his gospel or we are not his church and we shall be hewn down and cast into the fire - or, as he said elsewhere, cast out as salt that has lost its savor and is good for nothing but to be trodden under foot of men.
3 Nephi 16:13-15
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.
That's the covenant curse: salt that has lost its savor and is trodden under foot of men. That's us.
Last edited by log on Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by log » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:37 am

LDS D&C 45:56-59
56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.

57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.

58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.

59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.



Mujer
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Re: Clarification Requested

Post by Mujer » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:15 pm

Thank you for your responses. I feel persuaded and agree, but I am not sure how many others will be also. Given that the original G&S, the one upon which so many others have been modeled upon, had instructions on fellowships, ordinances, and principles I think it is hard for anyone to set aside all desires and simply listen with an open heart. I am reminded of how it took me nearly two years to open my heart to anything Denver had written, and then it was not the book The Second Comforter but rather Come, Let Us Adore Him that enabled me to receive a witness to his message from Christ. But I would not be where I am right now if I had not been willing to open my heart without prejudice or judgment.

And how many of us can truly say we are led in all things by the Holy Ghost? Maybe that is the stumbling block here? Do we look at our lives and see clearly how we were led to the teachers, the messages, the instructions, the light we lacked as we became prepared to receive them? Jared, I think you have highlighted important truths. I hope people will become more willing to just listen. Otherwise they might continue to feel cornered or tricked or forced themselves. Maybe you will need to begin addressing concerns and fears? Truly, we are being tested to see if we actually will walk our talk, methinks.



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